Conversation Starter... the 161 TWIN series

[Docwheelhorse 2,660]

Hello All,

so... those that know me know I have a weak spot for Briggs powered Wheel Horses... I seem to be the only guy that likes them and will sit proudly next to @Wild Bill in VA and his equally "disliked" Tecumseh stuff...

 

I got the opportunity to pick up a C161 Twin Automatic and did, it will be cleaned up and will motivate me to clean up / get my C161 Twin 8 Speed going.

 

I know there's some sort of story out there that the "new" twin didn't fit and WH had to come up with a fiberglass hood last minute etc, how much truth in this panic story is there and would these be considered any more rare than anything else. I'd like to know how many where made between '78 and '79.

 

As of right now (09/12/22) I'd like to think I'll have them both up and running to bring to the "Big Show" next year, I don't have an RJ or Suburban 400 to add to the show tractor pile. 

 

Anybody got any interesting history etc on these units?

 

Tony

[Pullstart 62,905]

I had one until recently… the new owner plans to pull with it.  Of all black hoods, I might consider that one the best looking!  
 

 

[Racinbob 11,088]

That was a 1978 model and the first black hood. That year they had a C-161 with a Kohler K-341 and it was the traditional square hood. They also had the C-161 Twin Automatic that was your black hood and my favorite black hood. I much prefer the traditional dash over the flat dash of later black hoods. It was the first C series with a twin and I believe they needed the added engine clearance. 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,596]

Nice! 

 

Love the Black Hoods!!! 

 

FYI - The E-141’s also have fiberglass hoods…same circa…

[Pullstart 62,905]

16 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

Nice! 

 

Love the Black Hoods!!! 

 

FYI - The E-141’s also have fiberglass hoods…same circa…

With the old C series dash?  Good to know!

[SylvanLakeWH 25,596]

26 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

With the old C series dash?  Good to know!

 

Here’s a pic… you can zoom in to the dash… sides are different as well. They go down further to shield batteries and motor from water…

 

 

[Moonshine*Connoisseur 435]

I have one that I would consider selling. I purchased it about 5 years ago and it just sits inside my enclosed trailer. I dont know anything about it, haven't tried starting it. Are they rare ?  

[ebinmaine 67,575]

5 hours ago, Racinbob said:

That was a 1978 model and the first black hood. That year they had a C-161 with a Kohler K-341 and it was the traditional square hood. They also had the C-161 Twin Automatic that was your black hood and my favorite black hood. I much prefer the traditional dash over the flat dash of later black hoods. It was the first C series with a twin and I believe they needed the added engine clearance. 

 

 

Bob, do you know the reason they had two engines offered?

Was it a shortage of Kohlers like the 1974's I have with the Tecumseh engines?

Marketing trying to offer a less expensive unit?

Just curious....

 

 

[Racinbob 11,088]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Bob, do you know the reason they had two engines offered?

Was it a shortage of Kohlers like the 1974's I have with the Tecumseh engines?

Marketing trying to offer a less expensive unit?

Just curious....

 

 

I sure don't Eric. At the time I figured they were testing the waters with both the black hoods and the twin in a C-Series. The black hoods didn't last long but the twins did in the next generation. 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,596]

5 hours ago, Moonshine*Connoisseur said:

I have one that I would consider selling. I purchased it about 5 years ago and it just sits inside my enclosed trailer. I dont know anything about it, haven't tried starting it. Are they rare ?  

The 161 Briggs twin or the E 141 electric? I don’t think either are very common…

[Moonshine*Connoisseur 435]

32 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

The 161 Briggs twin or the E 141 electric? I don’t think either are very common…

I have the c-161 briggs twin.

 

[Moonshine*Connoisseur 435]

[Moonshine*Connoisseur 435]

I stole the Pto bell for another tractor, otherwise it is a complete tractor. This convo makes me want to dig it out and get it going, lol. Ive done 6 wheel horse revivals so far this year, maybe I can squeeze this one in. Im in the middle of a Kubota engine swap on a wheel horse frame now. 

[ebinmaine 67,575]

8 minutes ago, Moonshine*Connoisseur said:

Kubota engine swap on a wheel horse frame

Thread for this? 

[Moonshine*Connoisseur 435]

12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Thread for this? 

It should be under "Mega Horse"  in the search bar. Not sure how to share thread info, im not too computer saavy. I know enough to get me into trouble, thats about it, Lmao.

[c-series don 8,719]

I’m not sure how rare they are but I have a C-161 twin automatic that I inherited many years ago. Its been sitting in my basement for years now. I’m not sure what I’m going to do with it? 

[cafoose 3,355]

 

[bo dawg 516]

Its been a long time since I heard the story about the fiberglass hoods, but from what I can remember Kohler didnt have their twin ready in time for the new model. I think it was supposed to be the 17hp. So, they had to go with the Briggs 16hp twin, but the exhaust tailpipe location was different, and Wheel Horse already had their hoods made up and they didnt fit. So they had to be quick to make their new model launch and decided to make the fiberglass hoods with the notch so the exhaust would fit when closed. So the C-175 would have been out sooner if Kohler was on time.

[wh500special 2,184]

I’m a Briggs fan.  
 

They seem to exhibit a much higher tolerance to sitting for long periods of time without developing any ignition troubles.  I don’t know how far back it goes, but Briggs was using solid state ignitions a long, long time ago and well before we saw them gain complete acceptance by other engine makers. 

 

Dad bought a 211-4 new in 1987.  It has a vertical shaft, aluminum bore 11-hp Briggs engine.  I think we put about 2000 hours on it with no problems other than the oil pan gasket developing a leak.  With maintenance, they are very durable engines. 
 

There has been quite a bit written on this forum about the C-161-twins and the stillborn C-171.  Worth a search. 
 

Twin cylinder engines were the next logical upgrade to garden tractors in the 1970’s.  Deere, Sears, Cub Cadet, Simplicity, et al were adding them to the lineup.  It was only logical that WH would as well. They are comparatively much smoother running and pleasing sounding than the big one lung Kohlers. 
 

The Kohler KT series had developed a questionable lubrication starvation reputation about the same time WH was to launch the C-171 with the twin cylinder KT-17.  Timing was on WH’s side and they instead substituted the Briggs 16 hp twin thus creating the C-161.  I suppose they could have borrowed the Onan from the D-series but it was likely either incompatible in some way or too expensive.   I’d suspect the latter. 
 

I think the fiberglass hood was intentional and planned from the get go for the C-171.  WH was not in the habit of sweeping changes and massive investment and most likely viewed a compression molded FRP hood as a cheap way to provide clearance for the larger engine and its attendant muffler and it would concomitantly offer some visual separation of the twins and the singles.  Best of all, it permitted leaving the rest of the tractor unchanged. 

 

After a couple years of the KT’s exploding on competing tractors Kohler had evidently convinced WH that the bulk of the problems were either avoidable or had been worked out, and WH released the revamped blackhood lineup to include the C-175.  The KT engines were less problematic in the transverse mounting arrangement used by WH compared to the longitudinal arrangement in competing makes, but they were far from bulletproof.  Eventually the Series II supplanted the original engine and things got better for everyone. 
 

I think the C-161 Twins hold a special place for collectors as they represent a significant milestone in being the first twin cylinder, classic format tractors.  And these first black hoods don’t suffer from rusting under the paint that seems to plague other WH products from the same vintage.  It’s been a while since I tore a tractor apart, but i think they also were on the tail end of nut-and-bolt construction compared to wider use of speed fasteners too. 
 

Something funny to think about is that many times when Wheel Horse wanted to do something new or special they turned to Briggs and Stratton. Lever Steer preferred engine?  Briggs.  Specialty models like the Commando 800, A90, GT-2500, SB’s, and Work Horses?  All Briggs.  And of course the preponderance of vertical shaft machines were Briggs powered.  
 

Steve

[WHX?? 48,828]

I had a 161 with the Briggs twin come thru my herd and it was a great tractor. B hood in fiberglass. Problem with it was blew oil out one side breather in copious amounts. I think the one @Pullstart had did the same thing.

I feared the worst and figuring the rings bad sold it. Couldn't finger out why on only one jug.

Did mow with it several times and probably should have kept it and showed it some love but just too many other irons in the fire. 

Your not alone in your favor with Briggs powered GTs Doc. We got a pal in our bunch who is a a Simplecity fan which are all Briggs. He recently restored a Case with a Kohler and has issues with it that often has@Achtoand I baffled.  

[cschannuth 3,816]

I’ve told this story before on here but my Dad bought his ‘78 C-161 from the neighbor when it was about a year old because the neighbor was aggravated that the rear seat pan broke almost immediately. Dad installed a metal pan and never looked back. This thing mowed grass in the summer and pushed snow in the winter for 30 years on the steep hills of my folk’s place before dad passed away. He was very particular with his stuff but he never did anything special to it other than regular maintenance and it still runs and operates great today. I was fortunate enough to end up with it.  The first picture is how it looked when I brought it home after I cleaned it up and the latter is how it looks today. I kept everything so I could put it back to original if I ever wanted to. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by cschannuth
Sp