More K301 questions... K301AS vs K301EP

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

What is the generator wattage output

 

It's a 3600 W rating.

 

Yes, the flywheel and connecting rod are the same part between the two engines.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:15 PM, 8ntruck said:

I wonder if it has a governor that has more precise speed control?

 

It does not appear to be any different than the 'normal' setup.  There is, of course, no provision for a 'remote throttle'.  The speed adjustment is a screw adjustment that varies the governor spring tension.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:23 PM, Achto said:

purchase a taper to keyed adaptor

 

Looking at the crankshaft end details, it appears that this is not an option.  The generator crankshaft is BIGGER than 1-1/8 (it's 1-1/2) so no way to make it smaller for the WH PTO.  I would have to change the crankshaft to use this engine.

 

[Achto 27,571]

6 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

The generator crankshaft is BIGGER than 1-1/8 (it's 1-1/2)

 

That seems huge for a generator. Are you going by a spec sheet or did you measure the crank? If the crank is 1 1/2" you could have it turned down and add a key way to it. If you have access to the equipment needed for said task.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 minutes ago, Achto said:

going by a spec sheet

 

Looked up the crankshaft part number for each engine spec, and posted the crank details in previous post.

 

I haven't separated the engine from the head yet.  Thought I would get the engine running first.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

6 minutes ago, Achto said:

could have it turned down

 

Would still require removing the crank from the engine, so might as well just swap cranks at that point.

[Snoopy11 5,714]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

The 1800 rpm also sort of shoots holes in the theory you have to run K series at 3600 RPM for cooling and lubrication. 

I have argued that same thing for a long... LONG time now...

 

Seems that every time I say that splash lube engines DO NOT have to run at 3,600 all the time for lubrication... someone develops a hemorrhoid...

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,714]

42 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

The generator crankshaft is BIGGER than 1-1/8 (it's 1-1/2)

 

25 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

swap cranks

Jeff.... I don't know if this is applicable or not, but if the crank in that genny is really 1-1/2... I wonder if the crankshaft hole in the block of the AS engine will be smaller than the crankshaft hole in the block of the EP engine...

 

Just a thought...

 

Don

[Achto 27,571]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, Jeff-C175 said:

I'm considering using the block from this engine on my C-125 that is knocking pretty bad.

 

47 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Would still require removing the crank from the engine, so might as well just swap cranks at that point.

 

Only thought on using the old crank is that you may not get rid of your knocking issue. If your old crank is worn beyond specs then even with a new rod you will still have slop that will cause a knock and premature failure. Personally I would rebuild the engine that you have, (turn the crank, bore the cylinder, what ever else needs to be done). This way you know what you have when your done.  Not always an economical route though, this I understand. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, Snoopy11 said:

wonder if the crankshaft hole in the block of the AS engine will be smaller than the crankshaft hole in the block of the EP engine...

 

Cranks are interchangeable, only difference is the machining on the 'business' end of the crank.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

54 minutes ago, Achto said:

I would rebuild the engine that you have

 

I'm sorta leaning in that direction myself.

 

But, for the price of an oil pan gasket, and the time to remove the engine, I think that I would first remove the balance gears and see if that's the source of the knocking.  But... to me it sounds more like a piston slap...

 

Of course, if I did swap the crank I would measure and correct with appropriate bearings.

 

My problem with rebuilding is that so far I've been unable to locate a machine shop that will work on these locally.

 

I am strongly considering crating it up and shipping it down to @richmondred01

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[richmondred01 2,237]

40 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I'm sorta leaning in that direction myself.

 

But, for the price of an oil pan gasket, and the time to remove the engine, I think that I would first remove the balance gears and see if that's the source of the knocking.  But... to me it sounds more like a piston slap...

 

Of course, if I did swap the crank I would measure and correct with appropriate bearings.

 

My problem with rebuilding is that so far I've been unable to locate a machine shop that will work on these locally.

 

I am strongly considering crating it up and shipping it down to @richmondred01

 

 

[richmondred01 2,237]

Probably a combination of balance gears, rod and piston slap. 

[kpinnc 12,023]

On 8/22/2022 at 3:55 PM, pfrederi said:

Yes with J bolts or get a WH spec big oil pan with tapped holes in the bottom

 

You can drill and tap the deep pan to use on a WH easily. Just don't attempt this without a drill press...

 

1. Remove the oil pan.

2. With a 1/8 bit in a drill press, drill the two right side tapped holes from the top all the way through. The factory holes have a taper in the bottom that will center the 1/8 bit. The smaller bit won't harm the threads.

3. From the bottom side of the pan, drill the two new holes half way (up to the factory threads) using a 5/16 bit. 

4. With a 3/8x16 tap, start at the top of the pan, "chasing" the factory threads. Thread all the way through, and you now have a WH pan. Back the tap out several times and clean the shavings as you go. It not only keeps the threads sharp and clean, but makes tapping easier. As with any tapping goes, don't force it. Keep the tap lubed and clean and take your time. Cast iron taps pretty easily.

5. Clean the pan very well and reinstall with a new gasket. You can now use the factory frame holes and bolt the engine directly to the frame.

Edited August 24, 2022 by kpinnc

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

17 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

You can drill and tap the deep pan to use on a WH easily. Just don't attempt this without a drill press...

 

1. Remove the oil pan.

2. With a 1/8 bit in a drill press, drill the two right side tapped holes from the top all the way through. The factory holes have a taper in the bottom that will center the 1/8 bit. The smaller bit won't harm the threads.

3. From the bottom side of the pan, drill the two new holes half way (up to the factory threads) using a 5/16 bit. 

4. With a 3/8x16 tap, start at the top of the pan, "chasing" the factory threads. Thread all the way through, and you now have a WH pan. Back the tap out several times and clean the shavings as you go. It not only keeps the threads sharp and clean, but makes tapping easier. As with any tapping goes, don't force it. Keep the tap lubed and clean and take your time. Cast iron taps pretty easily.

5. Clean the pan very well and reinstall with a new gasket. You can now use the factory frame holes and bolt the engine directly to the frame.

 

Thanks, but I don't believe I'm understanding...

 

Are you saying to drill and tap these all the way through and tap from both sides so I can bolt through frame into the bottom?

 

 

 

I would still need to remove the shaker plate because this pan is about an inch taller, but you did say "bolt to the frame".  I just don't grok what holes to drill and tap?

 

By the way, I got the engine running today.

 

Not sure why the video is outta focus?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TUVyonJRbKr85uEy5

 

Carb still needs some cleanup, but it runs well in spite and no knocking!

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[kpinnc 12,023]

3 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Are you saying to drill and tap these all the way through and tap from both sides so I can bolt through frame into the bottom?

 

Yes and no, the two holes on the side get tapped all the way through. The stock oil pan bolts go right back on afterward. The frame uses two other bolts from the bottom. The threads end up being two inches deep, so you can use bolts from both sides. That is how WH oil pans bolt to the frame.

Edited August 25, 2022 by kpinnc

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, kpinnc said:

 

Yes and no, the two holes on the side get tapped all the way through. The stock oil pan bolts go right back on afterward. The frame uses two other bolts from the bottom. The threads end up being two inches deep, so you can use bolts from both sides. That is how WH oil pans bolt to the frame.

 

Not sure why you're saying yes and no?  It sounds like we're saying the same thing?

 

Drill all four of the oil pan bolt holes through and tap them.

 

Bolt oil pan back to the block with the existing bolts from the top.

 

Bolt the engine to the frame rails from the bottom with four new bolts.

 

Zat wut yer sayin?

[richmondred01 2,237]

It seems like a lot of aggravation, machine work and cost. I’ve got a very nice low hour m12 ready to drop in wheel horse spec engine.

You can contact me via PM if interested.

[squonk 41,104]

Jeff are you in need of a big base pan with the threaded holes in the bottom? I have a couple laying around

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

Jeff are you in need of a big base pan with the threaded holes in the bottom? I have a couple laying around

 

Thanks Mike,  I am inclined to try drilling and tapping the one that's on the engine already...  

 

on the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me to find that this pan is already drilled and tapped... but I need to get it off the generator to find out.  I might see if I can figure out how to do so today,

 

I will keep your offer in mind and let you know what I decide to do.

 

 

[kpinnc 12,023]

17 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Drill all four of the oil pan bolt holes through and tap them.

 

Bolt oil pan back to the block with the existing bolts from the top.

 

Bolt the engine to the frame rails from the bottom with four new bolts.

 

Zat wut yer sayin?

 

I said yes and no because I thought you were asking about long bolts all the way through. There is more than enough threads for engine bolts on top and another set from the bottom for the frame. 

 

And you only need to drill the two holes, not all four. The other side of the pan bolts through the existing tabs on the pan.

Edited August 25, 2022 by kpinnc

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

44 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I said yes and no because I thought you were asking about long bolts all the way through. There is more than enough threads for engine bolts on top and another set from the bottom for the frame. 

 

And you only need to drill the two holes, not all four. The other side of the pan bolts through the existing tabs on the pan.

 

Ohhhhh... OK, I think I got it now!

 

I've been trying all afternoon to get the engine separated from the generator head.  I can not for the life of me figure out what's holding this together!

 

If there are bolts inside going into the engine block, they are not accessible.

 

The only other thing I can think of is that the bolt that's visible through the screen on the OTHER end of the genny head goes all the way through, into the end of the crankshaft.

 

I'm working on getting the rear cover off the genny head to investigate further but it's on there good and solid.  Letting the penetrant work on it now... 

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

12 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

the bolt that's visible through the screen on the OTHER end of the genny head goes all the way through, into the end of the crankshaft.

That's how it is on the few generators I have worked on.

 

Don

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

17 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

The only other thing I can think of is that the bolt that's visible through the screen on the OTHER end of the genny head goes all the way through, into the end of the crankshaft.

 

This appears to be the case.  But that end cover ain't budging!

 

Here's the thing though...  That generator head is HEAVY!!!!  I mean REALLY HEAVY!!!  I bet it's over 100 pounds.

 

So after I get the end cover off, I remove the 4 bolts holding the HEAVY!!! stator assembly into the bell housing (which by the way has 2 'feet' on it and is bolted to the frame)

 

Now what?  I'm going to have to put a strap around that stator and support it with a come-along.

 

Then do the rod down it's throat and the bolt in the end to separate the armature.

 

Then, I'm assuming that I'll be able to see bolts holding the bell housing to the engine block.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[kpinnc 12,023]

8 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

If there are bolts inside going into the engine block, they are not accessible.

 

Yeah, you likely have to tear the gen head down to seperate it from the engine.

 

The last one I took apart had a foot-long bolt threaded in the end of the crank.