More K301 questions... K301AS vs K301EP

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

I've come into possession of a K301EP on an old Homelite 3.6KW generator.

 

I'm considering using the block from this engine on my C-125 that is knocking pretty bad.

 

 

Not real clear on the differences between the "AS" and the "EP" engines.

 

Does this have the same crank configuration as the AS engine?  i.e. straight, not tapered?

 

It has the 'deep' oil pan.  I know I'll have to change that.  I understand that I may have to cut off the longer dipper on the connecting rod.

 

Is there anything else I need to know before I separate the gen head from the engine and make the genset unusable?

In other words, can I do what I'm planning on doing?

 

@richmondred01

[ineedanother 1,369]

22 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Not real clear on the differences between the "AS" and the "EP" engines.

 

 

No internal differences that I know of but I've not had that many opportunities to compare them in practice.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

23 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

No internal differences

 

Yep, I saw that chart in the service manual.  Doesn't tell ya a whole lot though.  For example, the "Variation of basic engine" breakdown.  

 

So you think the crank is the same and my PTO will fit right on?  I know many gensets use a tapered crank end.

 

I know for the external differences I'll be able to 'mix and match' those parts.  For example, the oil fill tube, etc...

 

But I did read that the engines with the 2 QT oil pan which this one has also have a longer dipper on the conn rod that needs to be modified.  That's easy enough.  The "AS" has a 'special oil pan' according to the chart.  I believe because the C-125 is a shaker plate.

 

I wonder if it's got the dreaded 'balance gears' ?

 

I suppose I'm going to need to separate it (if I can figure out how!) and do a dissection.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[ineedanother 1,369]

6 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

But I did read that the engines with the 2 QT oil pan which this one has also have a longer dipper on the conn rod that needs to be modified.  That's easy enough.

 

I would suspect that this would no doubt be the case (that's two puns for me today ). I don't have personal knowledge of any other differences internally and can't come up with a good reason why there would be. I'll be interested to hear from others though.

Edited August 21, 2022 by ineedanother

[ineedanother 1,369]

Having thought about it and poked around a bit, I suspect that the crank would be identical internally but there's a good chance that the externals (length, tapers, keyways, threads, etc.) would not be the same. 

[8ntruck 6,999]

EP being electric plant, I wonder if it has a governor that has more precise speed control?

[Achto 27,571]

Most generator engines have a tapered PTO shaft. This is done because most alternators only have a bearing on the end not connected to the engine. You can purchase a taper to keyed adaptor on Ebay.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132083677591

 

They are also available in 1 1/8" keyed shaft. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Achto

[953 nut 55,221]

Pump models have a tapered crank shaft but there is no reason you couldn't use the crank from the old engine. Considering the weight of the rotor in a generator I doubt that the engine would have balance gears. When you swap oil pans you can take a look though.

[richmondred01 2,237]

Crank will not be 1 1/8. Also the PTO side of the block I believe has different bolt pattern which will cause you to have to modify the PTO control unless of course you use an electric pt.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, richmondred01 said:

Crank will not be 1 1/8. Also the PTO side of the block I believe has different bolt pattern which will cause you to have to modify the PTO control unless of course you use an electric pt.

 

Can I use the crank from the other engine?

 

Bummer that the bolt pattern will be different. Is that a certainty? I'd like to use the same PTO.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,041]

 

[richmondred01 2,237]

The bolt pattern (may) be different. I don’t know for sure. I’m going off the top of my head. 
Yes your wheel horse crank can be used. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

OK then... after carefully going through the IPL that Garry posted and comparing the two engines...

 

This "EP" engine does NOT have the balance gears.

 

It has a "Stellite" exhaust valve and a 'rotator'.  I believe this is a PLUS.

 

I can't determine the differences on the carb... very confusing to me... but it's clear from looking at them both that the only differences may be just the linkages.  The governor linkage is clearly different, and the genny of course does not have the remote throttle.

 

The crankshaft is different.  The IPL does not say what the difference is, but I have to presume that the genny engine has a tapered shaft.  As stated by others, I can get an adapter, or use the crank from the "AS" engine. {edit: crankshaft details in later post, the EP engine DOES have a larger and tapered shaft end.}

 

The connecting rod is the SAME in both engines, the dipper is the same.

 

The fuel pump says it is different, but they sure look the same to me.  No matter, it will end up with an electric fuel pump anyway.

 

I didn't see any difference in the block casting part numbers so for the time being I'm going to assume that the bolt pattern may be the same.

WRONG!  The block is in fact different!  Need to research this more, but it does not appear that the "AS" oil pan will fit the "EP" block.

This is the EP pan:

 

This is the AS pan:

 

I may have to use the starter from the "AS" engine. {edit: YES.  the "AS" block uses a high mounted starter while the "EP" block is flipped over and mounted low.  I can't determine yet if the MOTOR is the same and I can simply change brackets.  But it's a moot point if I can't use the old oil pan.}

 

Everything else that I can determine is the same, so it appears I will easily be able to mix and match the parts between the two engines to get one good one with no balance gears.

 

Maybe I'll get some shop time today to try and figure out how to separate the gen head from the engine.  There are no visible bolts.  I'm wondering now if there are any bolts.  Is it possible that the bolts holding the engine and the gen head to the frame are what's actually keeping the two together?  {no point in doing this if the oil pan won't interchange, is there?}

 

 

@richmondred01

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Added what I think is a helpful piece of info to the manuals section:

 

 

[pfrederi 17,739]

Large base vs small base engine blocks...(see pinned post above)

  However you can mount the big base oil pan on your C125 just dump the shaker mount and either get a WH oil pan or use J bolts on the right side.

Read that some K series for generators were 1800 rpm units  (I think just K341 but not 100% sure)

 

 

There is a crankshaft manual with dimension some where in tehmanulas section.

Edited August 22, 2022 by pfrederi

[pfrederi 17,739]

95 pages of Crank dimensions

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

19 hours ago, pfrederi said:

95 pages of Crank dimensions

 

Thanks Paul!  I didn't see that when I was just looking.  Needing to know the difference between the 4714216 and the 4714218 cranks.

You posted the front cover, is that in the manuals section?  Where?  never mind, I'll find it.

 

OK... that's funny.  I'm the one that uploaded that manual in 2013 !  No wonder I couldn't find it!  I can never remember where I put things!

 

19 hours ago, pfrederi said:

some K series for generators were 1800 rpm units

 

This genset is an 1800 RPM model.  The RPM of the engine regulates the output frequency of the generator head.  Engine isn't limited to 1800 RPM AFAIK, it would run up to 3600 RPM with the remote throttle fitted to it.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

10 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

you can mount the big base oil pan on your C125 just dump the shaker mount

 

So you're saying use the pan that's already on the EP engine and mount direct to frame?

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

This is the crank we know and love, on the "AS" engine:

 

This is the one we're not too keen on, on the "EP" engine:

 

And these are the previous incarnations.  Same on this end, but I believe there is some difference on the flywheel end.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[pfrederi 17,739]

38 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

So you're saying use the pan that's already on the EP engine and mount direct to frame?

 

 

 

Yes with J bolts or get a WH spec big oil pan with tapped holes in the bottom

[squonk 41,104]

Gonna have to change the rod with the bigger pan. Dipper will be too short

Edited August 22, 2022 by squonk

[pfrederi 17,739]

1 minute ago, squonk said:

Gonna have to change the rod with the bigger pan. 

 Mike I  think the gen engine (orange in pictures) has the big pan

 

The AS style pan WH used on shaker mounts has the same depth (in a small area) and uses some rod as the big base pans...)  There are some shallow pans that need shorter dipper...

[squonk 41,104]

Oh ok. Thought the genny had the shallow one. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 hours ago, squonk said:

Gonna have to change the rod with the bigger pan. Dipper will be too short

 

Both engines are Ursa Major. 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,739]

What is the generator wattage output. I can't find the chart right now but at 1800 rpm most small engines produce less than 50% of normal HP so you have a 6-7hp engine.

 

The 1800 rpm also sort of shoots holes in the theory you have to run K series at 3600 RPM for cooling and lubrication.  The generators were made for extended running....  And from what I see there is no change in the Flywheel fan blades and the splash lube...