Retrofit Electric power coming to Outdoor Power Equipment

[wh500special 2,179]

I was engine shopping on Honda's website today and found these new electric power units (battery/controller/motor).  So far these are only in the 2.4-HP class, but I'd bet we see bigger ones soon. I would think one in the 5-hp range would be a perfect swap into a smaller Wheel Horse like a shortframe/suburban.  Honda GXE2.0  Even this one would work well as a drive motor for the transmission on a C-series if you also added electric power to the attachments separately.

 

 

I think this is brilliant packaging that will permit easy swapping and seamless integration into legacy equipment.  They do also offer a divorced battery/motor version.

 

I didn't do the math on runtime/chargetime/etc.  But would bet that runtime would approximate whatever a normal tank of gas would provide on an engine this size.

 

This is quite exciting!

Steve

Edited August 17, 2022 by wh500special

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

Right along lines of what I’m thinking of doing for a backyard cruiser repower for little guys… thanks for posting!

 

Doesn’t look like available yet for aftermarket…?

Edited August 17, 2022 by SylvanLakeWH

[Pullstart 62,851]

I’m hopeful that electric will someday actually become renewable,  it haven’t 100% believed it.  It takes energy to make energy and the making Ian:t regulated as much as combustion engines in my mind.  How long will the battery last at comparable run times?  Is it serviceable or are parts replaceable?  

[ri702bill 8,319]

2 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

How long will the battery last at comparable run times?  Is it serviceable or are parts replaceable?

And don't forget what I call the "spank" factor - how hard will one of these spank the wallet??? Could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but.... what is the true long term cost of ownership??

[Handy Don 12,217]

5 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

I’m hopeful that electric will someday actually become renewable,  it haven’t 100% believed it.  It takes energy to make energy and the making Ian:t regulated as much as combustion engines in my mind.  How long will the battery last at comparable run times?  Is it serviceable or are parts replaceable?  

To me, the progress on electric motor design and efficiencies over the last ten years has been phenomenal and, as we can see in @wh500special's post, it starting to trickle down into more accessible tools and solutions. But the biggest hurdles still ahead are in the batteries (and the sourcing of rare earth metals used in them) and the controls to optimize motor performance and battery charging. Right now, this is heavily proprietary (though there is progress on the charger front, for sure).

Some recent research on Tesla Models 3 and Y batteries suggests they are vehicle-usable for between three- and four-hundred thousand miles of driving before needing replacement. Nissan is piloting recycling vehicle batteries into home power storage units where the lower storage capacity-to-weight ratio isn't a showstopper.

And recently announced research results by teams who have captured high concentrations of releasable hydrogen in a stable powder form might be a game changer for portable energy storage.

[8ntruck 6,999]

I always chuckle at the preception that BEVs are non polluting. 

 

Right now, the majority of them pull power from coal burners or natural gas burners. Are emissions per kWh higher or lower than an internal combustion engine?  Not sure, but are probably lower.  

 

How about lifecycle cleanliness - battery and electronics production and disposal cleaner than disposal of a petroleum burner?  Do we even know how to dispose of large numbers of lithium based batteries at the end of their life cycle?   

 

Like everything else, continued improvements won't come without some sort of cost.

 

Just some idle thoughts from a retired engineer. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by 8ntruck

[wh500special 2,179]

Curiosity got to me...

 

The spec shows this has a 748 W-hr battery.  The motor is 1.8 kW.  That suggests that the battery life under full load is only about 25 minutes if drawn down completely.  Assuming the battery management system allows only 80% discharge, this translates to 20 minutes at full load.

 

It's doubtful that the machines to which this would be mounted would ask for 100% load 100% of the time, so actual battery life may not be so bad.  But it's clearly limited by trying to maintain the same physical envelope as a normal engine and fuel tank.  And certainly an OEM would outfit these to only run when under load so there would be no idling, warmup, etc.

 

Before we scream "that won't work!" we probably need to wait for better specs and find out what accessories and additional battery sizes might be offered.  But this does temper my enthusiasm.

 

I'll probably chime in on the renewable and clean aspects later.  But the general implications of electrification are for gained overall efficiency in most (not all!) cases.

 

Steve

[Handy Don 12,217]

9 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

Just some idle thoughts from a retired engineer. 

Yes, large scale generation (generally) pollutes less per kilowatt than small engines unless the power has to travel over long distances with attendant transmission losses. Moving power is a huge, mostly hidden, challenge.

NY in the last two years idled two nuclear plants very close to the areas they served on the promise that "renewables will take care of it". 

Oops.

Gas-powered generation shot up. Renewable generation crept up. Pollution up noticeably. None of these show signs of change any time soon.

[8ntruck 6,999]

and more and more BEV's will be plugging into the power grid to be recharged as time goes on.  How many kWh does a gallon of gas equal?  How many gallons of gas are burned daily?  

 

How are the California and Texas power grids holding up this summer?

 

Back to the original thread subject - Honda has come up with a neat conversion package.  Will work for retrofit and they could sell a bunch of them to companies to 'electrify' their current products without having to dive into battery, motor, and control design and production.  I wonder if B&S has a similar program going, or if they are going to become a buggy whip manufacturer.

Edited August 17, 2022 by 8ntruck

[wh500special 2,179]

27 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

 ...How many kWh does a gallon of gas equal?  How many gallons of gas are burned daily?  

 

 

Though the theoretical number is higher, 33.7 kW-hr/gallon is commonly used.  Chemists would calculate or measure this this in joules or calories.

 

So the "tank" in our Honda eGX is 0.02 gallons or about 3oz. For comparison, a typical push mower holds about a quart (32 oz) but will expel 2/3 of that gas energy as waste heat in the exhaust and cooling air.

 

Steve

[squonk 41,104]

We've needed power grid upgrades for years. Maybe EV's and EOPE's will push the upgrades along to everyone's benefit. 

[Handy Don 12,217]

3 hours ago, squonk said:

We've needed power grid upgrades for years. Maybe EV's and EOPE's will push the upgrades along to everyone's benefit. 

Only when people start getting into their EV's in the morning and discovering that it wasn't charged overnight due to a power distribution problem.

[lynnmor 7,305]

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Yes, large scale generation (generally) pollutes less per kilowatt than small engines unless the power has to travel over long distances with attendant transmission losses. Moving power is a huge, mostly hidden, challenge.

 

 

I don't think that the real information is available on the power loss.  Many years ago it was said to be up to half was lost in transmission, now 7% is being stated.  When a florescent tube no longer lights up under a major line, then I will believe the 7%.  

[953 nut 55,223]

My sister-in-law has a Ryobi battery rider that looks like the one below. It works great for her small yard and has been getting the job done for about five years. She mower the neighbor's lawn which is about twice the size of hers once and the battery had to be charged before she had finished so battery life is a valid concern. With all the push for electric vehicles the price on this is now about double what she paid.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

I think Honda’s on to something with this idea… When available I plan to check them out…

 

But…

 

I’m not anti-battery; second season with Dewalt’s 20 volt line - lawn mower, weed whip, chain saw, blower, hedge trimmer… batteries fit all my power tools. Excellent stuff. I have two E 141’s - love them!!! Looking at making a small  cruiser with an electric repower…

But…

 

They are not “green”… plastic, toxic innards, electricity used to charge them generated from fossil fuels, and 95% of the batteries off these things will end up in the landfill at end of life… not to mention the millions of gas powered mowers etc. going into landfills or for scrap… not “green”… 

 

Unicorn farts and rainbow dust will not provide fuel for our future needs…

 

Ok. Off …

[Handy Don 12,217]

56 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

I don't think that the real information is available on the power loss.  Many years ago it was said to be up to half was lost in transmission, now 7% is being stated.  When a florescent tube no longer lights up under a major line, then I will believe the 7%.  

I'll second that. I know the transmission technologies have improved, especially for shorter-haul connections, but not that much!

 

A good part of my career was involved with cases for changing business processes along with buying/modifying/developing the relevant software and then managing the implementations. Opportunities for selective presentation of information abounded and the dynamics of the pressures to "just make the numbers work" were often daunting, even career threatening for more junior employees. I loved it when I could sit next to the client and, in an aside, suggest a question or two they might want ask the presenter!

[953 nut 55,223]

12 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

 

Unicorn farts will not provide fuel for our future needs            

            Soooooo, Unicorns don't produce methane when they poop?                 Guess it is a two stage process, we have to eat their poop and produce the methane for the Unicorns.                       Lazy critters ain't they.     

[8ntruck 6,999]

I wonder how one of these would work in an old mini bike frame?

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

41 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

I wonder how one of these would work in an old mini bike frame?

I would think just fine (and slow) for a short period of time…

[ri702bill 8,319]

23 hours ago, wh500special said:

Assuming the battery management system allows only 80% discharge, this translates to 20 minutes at full load.

Here's the pitch.....SWING and a miss....

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:19 PM, 8ntruck said:

I wonder if B&S has a similar program going

They do. Search for B&S 82V or B&S Vanguard electric.

I believe 'Dirt Monkey' on YT has a video about the batteries. 

[ebinmaine 67,484]

I'm not by a long shot against electric power or changing to a truly cleaner type of power but I firmly don't believe mass society is able to do so yet, and won't be for a long long time. Not to sound cynical. I'm a realist. The US is over-regulated to the point of being very nearly hobbled to a stop. 

 

Even given all of the above I'd still rather change an old Horse to electric than buy a new disposable machine.  

These smaller aftermarket retrofit type electric powerplants would at least permit me to do so. 

 

IMHO... A step in the right direction.  

[Handy Don 12,217]

On 8/21/2022 at 8:05 AM, ebinmaine said:

Even given all of the above I'd still rather change an old Horse to electric than buy a new disposable machine.  

These smaller aftermarket retrofit type electric powerplants would at least permit me to do so. 

 

My first reaction was the same--just change from an engine to a motor.

After some more research, though, I'm convinced that the transaxle, motor, and motor control must be a matched set. Railroad locomotives are able to manage "start from stop with incredible loads" up to "run at 60 MPH" with no gear shifting. Motor controls are incredible.

In my mind, a reasonable (though not perfect) conversion will be to replace a hydro pump/motor with an electric motor. Maybe a great opportunity for those tractors with Eaton 700's?

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

With two E 141’s I can attest that an electric motor (supposedly equal to 14 hp) works great on a Black Hood “C” chassis and 8 speed… Uses exact same trans, clutch etc.

 

 

[wh500special 2,179]

You’re on to something, Don. 
 

The GE Elek Traks coupled their drive motor directly to the transaxle.  There was no clutch.  I’m not sure how they handled the start and stop of the electric motor, but i assume it was through a 1970’s technology variable speed drive…or at least some sort of soft start. 
 

The E-141’s were a defeatured, less expensive shot at electrification.  Using the standard tractor chassis and substituting a motor and set of contactors in was a reliable and inexpensive conversion.  I like the concept - a lot - but it was far from an optimized setup.  But it brought the servicing of such a unique machine into the reach of a normal owner and dealership. 
 

I bought a new push mower a few years ago when my old one was getting too finicky for me to rely on for weekly use.  I bought a conventional gas powered unit.  Had the electric mowers been at the stage they are now i would have certainly bought one of them instead.  The interest level in this stuff is high so there is impetus to evolve the technology.  And it’s changing fast. 
 

Battery electric power still doesn’t make

sense in every case and there are outlier applications on each end of the spectrum where they don’t fit.  But the big band in the middle is getting wider almost daily. 
 

Steve