1967 T1267 won’t move

[JimSraj 430]

Opened up the trans yesterday and really don’t see anything that is broken or otherwise doesn’t look right.  The very edges of the gears for hi and 2nd and the one for 1st and reverse are slightly damaged but I’d think that may be usual for a 55 year old trans.  I’m cleaning it up with diesel so I can get a better look at it all but I don’t expect to find anything more. Axle seal and the seal at the input shaft are dripping diesel. 

I didn’t mention that I found the keyway of the hub on the right side to be all wallowed out toward the inside. The axle is not damaged but I’ll need to replace that hub. If anyone has a hub for 1-1/8” axle with 5 bolts that they’d be willing to sell I’m interested. I’ll get some pictures of the gears posted later today. 

[JimSraj 430]

To my inexperienced eyes they don’t look too bad for 55 years old.  Anyone have an opinion?

 

[JimSraj 430]

Opened up the differential today after reviewing stevasaurus videos (link provided by Squonk). At first I thought everything looked good but when I had a hard time getting the second body over the pinions I found the lower one to be cracked as you can see in the pictures. The spring was pushing the pinions out just enough that I couldn’t get the second body into place. I really wanna thank you guys for sharing your knowledge and resources. I almost didn’t open up the differential but stevasaurus ‘s tutorials made it look pretty easy so I figured I’m into it this far may as well see if everything is ok in there. So glad I did. Now to locate a replacement. 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

The pictures of the gears you showed look good.  Contact A-Z Tractors to see if he has a replacement for that broken piece.    What do the rest of the differential parts look like??  There is a reason that that piece is cracked...just thinking.  

[Handy Don 12,235]

1 minute ago, stevasaurus said:

There is a reason that that piece is cracked...just thinking.  

Exactly my thought. Wondering what force, and how applied, could cause that. Something small and very hard jammed between two pinions, maybe?

[JimSraj 430]

It’s hard to imagine what could have made that crack like that since it’s captured in the ring gear. As I’ve said before, I’ve got very little experience here but as far as I can see there is nothing else wrong in the differential or the rest of the trans for that matter except for some leaking seals and worn bearings which I’ll be replacing. 

[squonk 41,149]

My guess is at some point that tractor tried to pull something it wasn't designed to pull

[stevasaurus 22,764]

@JimSraj can you post a couple pictures of the 10 pinions and the 2 axle gears??  

[squonk 41,149]

Pinion gear rides in that area. Gear tried to exit the area due to excessive load.

[JimSraj 430]

If that’s what happened it was before I got the tractor. I’ve never pulled any thing with it. In the year or so that I’ve had it the engine was out while I rebuilt it and refurbished the deck. I mowed with it several times here at home then took it to my WV camp where it mowed about an acre or so 5 or 6 times before it quit moving. 

I’ll get some pictures of the rest of the differential later today or tomorrow at the latest.  Tuesdays are granddaughter day here. She pretty much has our attention all day. Maybe at nap time?

[Handy Don 12,235]

Ah, sorry, I didn't connect initially that this is a six-speed LSD differential.

 

A critical part of their design is that the pinions float and their teeth rub against the walls of the housing, unlike others where the pinions rotate on pivots and never contact the housing. That rubbing friction is what imparts the "limited slip" function and why these need the extra high oil level internally.

 

Seeing that there are a couple of chipped teeth on other gears, it is very likely that a chip got wedged between the pinion and the housing wall or between two pinions (the tolerances are extremely tight there). This would have happened when the tractor was in a tight turn with neither rear wheel slipping (which is the only time pinions rotate relative to the housing). The break is clearly from a force pushing outward.

 

The pinion that was in that spot may show some sign of the event on one tooth only!

[JimSraj 430]

Here are some pictures of the pinions and axle gears. I’ll check each of the pinions more closely for specific tooth damage tomorrow and take pictures if I find anything out of ordinary. Whatever was the cause of the break it’s gonna require a new body so I guess it’s kind of academic and speculative. Would be interning to know though. 

If you guys were this far into the trans would you replace all the seals and bearings or just what is obviously bad?  

Thanks for your help. 

[953 nut 55,296]

9 hours ago, JimSraj said:

would you replace all the seals and bearings or just what is obviously bad?

Axle bearings and all seals are a no-brainer, Lowell @wheelhorseman can fix you up. https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product-category/seals/      Give him a call.

[Handy Don 12,235]

Jim, my transaxle expertise is very limited and mostly "book learning".

As far as seals and bearings go, I'd advise seals always, bearings if needed. Others here with hands-on experience can advise how to check bearings. It also depends on what future you see for this tractor, i.e. how much and how hard you plan to work it.

I will note that the amount of wear in that endplate would cause me concern. I'd suspect that the combined wear of the pinion teeth outer edges and insides of the pockets in those locations was significant.

[oliver2-44 9,759]

You can do a simple check to determine if the axle bearings need replacement. Slide the axle shaft back into the casing half. From the outside try to move the axle up/down and Side to side. If you see more than a tiny tiny bit of movement at the seal area the bearings need replacement.

If you have a caliper or micrometer I also like to measure the axle shafts in the bearing area and the a non bearing area and compares the measurements. If there’s more than a couple of thousands difference the axle shafts may need replacement 

[JimSraj 430]

Thanks guys. I’m planning to replace the axle band input shaft bearings and seals.  I was wondering about the others. They seem to be ok but how can I check. 

I will mic the axle. Good idea oliver2-44.

Better axle gear and Pinion pictures to follow. 

[JimSraj 430]

 Just reread my previous post. That should have read ‘axle and input shaft ‘. 

Here are some better pictures of the two pinions that have the most wear as well as a better one of the axle gear. 

All of the pinions have some slight wear but as with the rest of the gears it does not appear, to my inexperienced eyes, to be out of the ordinary. I will defer to the experience of the transmission guys here. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

Thanks for adding the clear images of some of the parts.

I don't like the looks of the end plates, the axle gears, or the pinions, they look to me like the were hard used with not enough lubrication. It is just plain wore out. Personally, I would not re-use any of that differential on a tractor that I expected to last a while or do steady work. Bummer.

 

That said, I will defer to input from folks who've been inside lots more transmissions than I've ever even driven!

[oliver2-44 9,759]

@stevasaurus it would be good to get your eves on these parts. 

I’ve never been in a 6speed limited slip transmission. With that said, with less WH down here in Texas Ive reused pinions and gears that had equal or more wear. My C-81 transmission is not pristine and it pushes dirt and mows grass. 
 

If it were me I would take a fine file and lightly work it across each gear tooth Just enough to remove any high spots or burrs. On the aluminum side plates I would also use a fine flat file. Hold it flat against the plate and try to just remove any high ridges/ spots around those west areas. Maybe even a large flat medium grit hone. Just to take the burrs and ridges off. 
 

I don’t have any experience, but I wonder if the “limited slip spring”  has lost some tension working hard like it looks like the pinions have. Hopefully someone can suggest how to check it. Did the spring have a fair amount of tension on the pinions when you removed it, or was it easy to pull out?

[JimSraj 430]

Agree, hope stevasaurus comes on and offers his opinion. 

Spring did not come out easily it had a good amount of tension on it. Felt about like what I saw in stevasaurus tutorial. 

I was thinking about turning the pinions over so the worn parts would be in the middle of the axle gears. Any thoughts on that?

[Handy Don 12,235]

30 minutes ago, JimSraj said:

Any thoughts on that?

I'm seeing a lot of wear on these pinions. I suspect heavy wear on the axle gears and on the housing "pockets" as well.

 

First, uneven rounding on the ends of the teeth where they were rubbing against the inside, curved part of the housing "pockets" (Green arrow) The rounding is greater at the end than in the middle which tells me: a) the pinions were not pressing evenly into the housing, b) the pinions are now misaligned, and c) there is almost certainly corresponding wear in the housings (both of them).

Second, notching on the ends of the teeth that were engaging the axle gear. (Red arrow). This means there is increasing gear lash between these gears and, likely, the axle gears have extra wear.

 

The above, combined with the gouging on the end plate tells me the pinions are sufficiently worn that they are no longer aligning correctly within the housing or with each other.

 

Swapping the ends? Moves rounded and worn down pinion teeth to engage with probably worn axle teeth and moves notched worn (and possibly sharp edged) teeth to engage with the housing pockets.

 

I'd strongly consider a new differential.  @stevasaurus may be able to help on whether a regular 8-pinion version can be a drop in assuming all the other gears, etc. are ok.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Handy Don

[WHX?? 48,828]

Just  chiming in to say good luck & follow Jim. Looks like you are in good hands and a 1267 one of my favs. Had many of them apart myself so will help out if needed. 

[pfrederi 17,741]

I like the 10 pinion LS Differentials. (I prefer the cast iron end plates).  I would not just put yours back together.  End Plate wear and worn pinions are not going to lead to long productive life.  (If it is not a worker just run it)

 

However if you have the two piece pinion gear all you need is an 8 pinion differential to convert. 

 

 

[WHX?? 48,828]

On 9/29/2022 at 7:58 AM, JimSraj said:

 

I didn’t mention that I found the keyway of the hub on the right side to be all wallowed out toward the inside. The axle is not damaged but I’ll need to replace that hub. 

I can fix those hubs Jim

Edited October 6, 2022 by WHX??

[squonk 41,149]

You are an hour and a half away from a fellow in Malvern who probably has a pile of transmissions. He's on FB all the time.