C160 motion control assembly removal.

[manant 57]

I have a 1974 c160 auto which I salvaged from my neighbor who was going to take it to the dump. Pretty good buy at $0.00. It had been in one of his sheds for 5 or 6  years and appeared to have a blown head gasket.  I got it running, and reconditioned it. When I replaced the head gasket I noticed a lot of burnt oil on the piston and some movement (slop) between the piston and cylinder. I did know any better and let it ride.  It ran for several years before the piston shattered and I thought the engine was toast. however I was able to rebuild the engine and have run the machine for eleven years and counting.

 My problem is with the motion control assembly,  The shaft has a tab that bolts to the frame to keep the shaft from turning.  The tab was sheared off when I got the machine, but I have been able to use the tractor anyway.  I have tried for years to get the thing out of the machine to no avail.  I saw a thread from HappyHillbilly and DAVOMAN66 from several years back where a photo was posted of the assembly.  The photos helped me better understand how it works, and how to get it out.   Like HappyHillbilly, I think my problem is the threaded adjustment sleeve is seized to the shaft and I can not move the components in order to get the woodruff  key out.  I have use penetrating oil, heat from a mini blow torch, vice grips, general banging with a hammer, etc.  Any suggestions on what else I might try?    Also I can not remove the plastic cam that moves the transmission controller.  I got the nut off of the post but can not wiggle the cam out. Any Help would be appreciated.

I have tried to attached a photo of the C160 as I received it and of my first renovation but the file size is too large.

[johnnymag3 2,525]

There is a Thread on this with pictures and description of details. Do a search for it....and....

 

      then become a supporter and you can load all the pictures you want !!!    Its very inexpensive, worth every penny.....the cost of a lunch gets you 2 years of GREATNESS !!!!     Wheel Horse Fanatics....Whats better?

 

 

  Just an idea, plus helps pay the bills and keep us all together

 

John

[manant 57]

Thanks, I have seen the thread with photos but still have trouble getting it loose. 

I have been a member for ten years but really did not think what a supporter was  I assumed it was someone who provided technical support. It makes sense that a supporter would provide support in a monetary way and I will do so.

marshall

[johnnymag3 2,525]

7 minutes ago, manant said:

Thanks, I have seen the thread with photos but still have trouble getting it loose. 

I have been a member for ten years but really did not think what a supporter was  I assumed it was someone who provided technical support. It makes sense that a supporter would provide support in a monetary way and I will do so.

marshall

Being a Supporter helps keep this site afloat. It helps keep the LIGHTS on as they say. Im sure you will find it very rewarding and I'm also VERY sure you will give insight and teach somebody something someday. We all learn something everyday...and you will give support in many ways I'm sure here on the BEST WHEEL HORSE SITE on the planet !!!!!   

  John      We would love to see your C-160 and a few pictures of your problem may help someone here help you out !!!!

Edited July 14, 2022 by johnnymag3

[manant 57]

Thanks johnnymag3.  Here are two photos of the C160 in my neighbor's shed and one after my rehab in 2011.

As a note of curiosity, in 2014 when I had a fellow advise me on rebuilding the K341 I told him about my neighbor wanting to landfill the C160 he said anyone who would throw away a Wheel Horse is an idiot!  I have mentioned that to my neighbor many times for a good laugh. The other day my neighbor asked me how much money I had in it now and I jokingly said abut $6,000 and worth every penny. 

 

 

 

[pacer 3,174]

Its been many years since I fooled with that motion lever setup and really all I can remember vividly is  --- it is a BI%$#ch!!  As mentioned there are several posts re it and hopefully one of the guys will know/remember where a couple are and can give a link. 

 

That C160 is just too dang nice a tractor to go to the scrap heap -- the very nerve!! That model is generally held in the top 4-5 horses made here on the forum.

[johnnymag3 2,525]

Great save....especially a C-160...nice work !!!

 

[daveoman1966 3,762]

These motion control friction parts can be a real 'B' to get apart.  In the past, I've been able to completely grind off the tab (1) on the  friction rod (5) to where it is round so that the rod (5) can be 'pryed' back thru the side panel hole. Remove the belt guard and wiggle ...PRY...the ENTIRE verticle motion control lever and 'boxed-in' friction parts up & out of the hoodstand tunnel.

Doing this may (likely) spread the hoodstand tunnel slightly too wide but that can be overcome.  At least, you can get the friction parts on the workbench to tear apart.  Getting the friction collar (10) free of the friction rod (5) is the tuff part.         

[manant 57]

Thanks,  The tab is broken off except for a few edges on the opposite side of the shaft.

[manant 57]

I WILL TRY TO FILE/GRIND THE SMALL REMNANTS OFF OF THE SHAFT AND PUSH/PRY THROUGH THE FRAME TOWARD THE LEVER SIDE. Do I need to do anything with the brake lever cam that moves the lever into neutral? Also, when I move the shaft out of the tab side of the frame, does it move further through the frame on the other side ?

[pacer 3,174]

Seeing @daveoman1966 wonderful (as usual!) pic of the set-up jogs my memory....

 

What usually happens is parts 6 & 7 'stick' (like in LOCK) to themselves and to the shaft, which in turn tends to slowly lock the whole mechanism. Parts 6 & 7 are what give the 'tension'/feel?' of the movement of the shift arm. The tightening/loosening of the spring controls this. When (IF?) you get it apart, CLEAN everything and on reinstalling -- IIRC, do not oil -- can you confirm this Dave?

[pfrederi 17,893]

Do not lubricate the cone itself

[manant 57]

Thanks for everyone's help so far. I have attached photos of where I am now.  Thanks to Dave I started thinking about the frame instead of the shaft. Apparently I just needed a bigger hammer!  I hit the left side of the frame inside one time and it flexed enough for the shaft to pop free. The brass bushing was in bad shape so I will replace that later.  The frame flexed back into place and measures the same as before I whacked it. The shaft is free of the tab side frame and sticking out of the belt guard side frame. I think I need to unhook the drive belt pulley and also remove the belt to give me some more room to move the handle. I am also going to remove the brake cam device on the other side that resets to trans to neutral. I know I still have some work to do to get all the way out and ten to take it apart, but I am a step further today.

I have a machinist friend that I think will make me a new keyed shaft with a heavy duty tab welded to it.

Thanks to you again for your help.

[ineedanother 1,369]

@manant nice save! One or two things I would add is that the alignment of everything is critical. While your digging, check to be sure that the hood stand is not flexed or cracked where it mounts to the frame, and that the frame is not flexed or cracked where the gearbox attaches. Your drive belt looks to be aligned, which is good but I have seen that a small misalignment elsewhere can cause issues. 

[gt14rider 798]

I had trouble finding brass bushing,found these, 

[manant 57]

Update on my motion control repair.This photo is how it was when I got the C160 in 2011. I have used it for 11 years like this since I never could get the thing out.

 

 

I decided to bite the bullet and I hack-sawed an inch or so off of the shaft when it was sticking out of the belt guard side. With a few twists and turns the box and lever came out easily.

I took it to my basement and started trying to get the thing apart.  I used penetrating oil, mini blow torch, hammer, vice grips, wrench's, general bad words, and persistence.  The threaded sleeve finally started to move on the shaft a little and I knew I was on my way.  More penetrating oil and banging finally got me there!  The hammering deformed the end of the shaft so I cut another 1/2" off so it would slide completely out.  My machinist friend is making a replacement for me with a heavy duty tab.  I will add a photo when I get it.  Everything else is apart and mostly cleaned up and ready for installation.  I repainted the control lever and the box and also the brake return cam.

 

I do have some questions.  Since the threaded sleeve was rusted so tightly to the shaft would it make sense to add some anti-seize to that part of the shaft?  I think a tiny bit on the woodruff key might be good as well, so long as I do not get any on the cone itself.

 

As I indicated, the original flange bushing was destroyed.  Also, since the tab has been broken so long I think the bore through the frame has enlarged due to the shaft rotating. I went to the local Ace hardware store and got a bronze flange bearing ($2.60). That I think will work. I have attached a photo of it.  The bearing is 12mm x15mm x 20mm.  The 12mm is slightly smaller the 1/2" so I drilled it out to 1/2".  The OD is slightly larger than the hole in the frame but not 5/8". I am not sure whether I will enlarge the hole or sand down the bearing. I will also need to cut off about 3/4 of it.  There was no bushing on the belt guard side so I am thinking about using an axle nut on that side as someone else suggested.

 

While I was at the hardware store I looked at springs.  I replaced by brake spring 6 years ago with a hardware stock that was a little light.  It has worked for 6 years but always had a weak feel to it. Today, I got a heavier spring ($1.50) and put it on and it feels better.  It is a lot easier to handle with everything else out of the way.  I know these are not as high quality as original equipment but I have had enough success with them to make do.

 

 

Again I appreciate all of the advice and help everyone has provided.

 

[manant 57]

I have my new shaft and it looks good.  The photo shows the remnants of the old one and the new one.

 

My machinist friend said he did not have the tool to get the key-way deep enough, so I will have to file down the woodruff key slightly.  Not bad for $0.00.

I am still working on the bushing alternatives. I do think I will add an axle cap nut on the belt guard side and may end up with one on both sides if my bronze flange bearing does not work out.  The dimension

listed in mm do not convert to inches correctly.

 

I also have a preliminary photo of the assembly on the bench minus the bushings.  I thinks things are working out.

 

[daveoman1966 3,762]

Reman parts...lookin' REAL GOOD.  One comment:...  the woodruff key slot.  Inasmuch as the slot is full length in the CONE (7), your machinist buddy could have made just a plunge cutter to cut a square slot (1/2"-3/4" long), instead of trying to precisely matching the radius cut in the original shaft. You could then have used just a square (or rectangular) woodruff key to fit the plunge cut....instead of the half-moon key.  (I have done this on a much bigger scale...the Axle Shaft for the Hubs.)    

Edited July 22, 2022 by daveoman1966

[manant 57]

Thanks Dave. I did think about a straight key but was not sure how long to make it or if it would work right.  I hesitate to take the part back and ask for him to re-do the key-way since he was so nice about making the thing in the first place.  I will just file the half moon key a little and see how it goes.

What do you think about using anti-seize on the threaded sleeve to keep it moving freely? 

Thanks

[daveoman1966 3,762]

5 hours ago, manant said:

What do you think about using anti-seize on the threaded sleeve to keep it moving freely? 

Thanks

Dealer 'wrench guys' have told me in the past to not lube anything in that mechanism as doing so would defeat the concept of the apparatus' Friction Control'.  However, I don't think the 'anti-sieze' would be a bad idea...given that these can be nearly impossible to get apart after years and years of non-use or neglect.  Go for it.. 

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

7 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

Dealer 'wrench guys' have told me in the past to not lube anything in that mechanism as doing so would defeat the concept of the apparatus' Friction Control'.  However, I don't think the 'anti-sieze' would be a bad idea...given that these can be nearly impossible to get apart after years and years of non-use or neglect.  Go for it.. 

 

If they only said to not lube the friction cone, I would agree.  But why would one not lube a shaft that commonly " brown welds " itself together?

 

Anyone who tells you not to lube ANY part of that mech doesn't understand how it works.

 

 

[daveoman1966 3,762]

14 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

If they only said to not lube the friction cone, I would agree.  But why would one not lube a shaft that commonly " brown welds " itself together?

 

Anyone who tells you not to lube ANY part of that mech doesn't understand how it works.

 

 

I can only relay what the 'wrenchs' have told me.  Maybe they had in mind that any sort of lube is a dirt magnet...  

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

6 minutes ago, daveoman1966 said:

I can only relay what the 'wrenchs' have told me.  Maybe they had in mind that any sort of lube is a dirt magnet...  

 

Sure, I know...  but I believe they were told at some point that the friction cone is oilite material and didn't require lube and they mistakenly have taken that to mean everything under there should not be lubed, which IMHO is just wrong.

 

And in fact, if you DO lube the friction cone, it won't hurt a thing.  The tolerance inside that cone is so tight that any lube one were to put in there would get squeezed out as soon as it was assembled, if not shortly thereafter, and if you put lube on it with it together, it will never find it's way in between the two parts because the tolerance is so tight.  It will still have friction and work as intended.  I've lubed that mechanism for decades and never had any trouble with it not working as intended.  Mine are silky smooth and stay where I put them.  They don't move unless I move them myself.

 

I don't have any issues with dirt magnetization.  If we follow that idea to the letter, we would never lube ANYthing on the machines!  

 

So it's up to the individual to use common sense, or believe the legend.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

We have had this conversation in the past... and @Jeff-C175 is right.

 

The thought of not lubricating due to dirt infiltration is precarious... let's call it a 'slippery slope.'

 

Secondly... prior thought was that NOTHING should be lubricated on the entire shaft... I have the data to back that up... and it is asinine. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone... but it's true.

 

Thirdly... Jeff is on the money with regard to the lubricant/grease not staying in the cone. With that BIG OZZ spring pressing the cone against the friction collar... there is no way that grease is going to have a negative effect.

 

In the words of Peter Lena... keep it greasy...

 

Don

[manant 57]

Thanks, everyone for your input.  It makes sense to me to lube the shaft and I thought anti-seize was a good idea since the threaded sleeve was so hard to get off.