Anyone chiseled out balance gears?

[RED-Z06 2,221]

My old boss was telling me, hes never pulled gears out whole, he just uses a chisel and splits them in half...and this intrigues me because the pulling the crank part is whats got me putting off going back into my knocky M12S.  Anyone here accomplished it?

 

Fwiw ive put 72 hours on that thing since the rebuild, all pushing dirt, its worked hard..hasnt given me a single problem.

[moe1965 741]

Sounds like a gamble to me. I would be afraid of not getting out all the little fragments of the cast gear and creating a bigger issue down the line.  Just my 2 cents...

[RED-Z06 2,221]

1 hour ago, moe1965 said:

Sounds like a gamble to me. I would be afraid of not getting out all the little fragments of the cast gear and creating a bigger issue down the line.  Just my 2 cents...

Its always a gamble, the balance between doing more to do it right and doing less to not get so deep.  This engine is a shining example of that.  It was seized when i got it, sitting out 16 years but it ran..ran well, but the governor gear was busted.  So i tore it down and put in a new gear.  Then i said you know while im here i should hone the bore and put in rings because it had so much rust.  So i did..hot tanked the blockn scrubbed it all, power washed it, blew it dry..assembled...ran mint, for about 2 hours then it started smoking and rattling...must have missed some grit because the rings, piston and rod were wiped out.  I cleaned it all again..new piston, rod, rings...back together, ran great but under load it knocks...however ive verified my oil clearance on my rod..its perfect...has to be the balance gears chattering from the grit they ate the first time.  But, i should have never honed it. I should have left it alone🤣

[Tuneup 1,433]

I have a K, not an M, but probably the same internally. On the pulley side, get a drift and start pounding the pin for the rear gear into the block until the gear falls. Pan off, it's a pick 'em up and toss them in the trash. Front gear easily removed. That's my 60 year old memory on what I did 8 months ago. Now, hammering the pin back into the block from the outside can be trying. If I had to do it again, I'd polish it to reduce its size just partially. Anyway, done!

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, Tuneup said:

rear gear

 

2 minutes ago, Tuneup said:

Front gear

 

Are both gears 'driven' ? or does one gear drive the other ?    In other words, do they BOTH need to come out ?  

 

 

[Tuneup 1,433]

Crank driven but I'd expect lots of inbalance if only one is kept in place. Why is a New Jerseyite not at the show? Shame, Jeff, shame

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

24 minutes ago, Tuneup said:

Shame, Jeff, shame

 

 

 

So then,  BOTH gears are driven then... I was thinking that if one gear is driven from the crank, and the other driven from the other, then you could in theory take just the one out and the other would just sit there... but if they are both driven... well... 

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

1 hour ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

 

Are both gears 'driven' ? or does one gear drive the other ?    In other words, do they BOTH need to come out ?  

 

 

Both are driven independently by the crank gear, one above the crank and one below.  Or in front of and behind...depends on how its sitting on the bench

Edited June 26, 2022 by RED-Z06

[Snoopy11 5,714]

If I recall correctly... it was either Mike or Richard here on the forum who advise using the chisel method for easy removal.

 

As a matter of fact, there is a good bit of literature here on the forum about that...

 

 

2 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

they are both driven

 

In my experience, yes, both driven by the crank. I haven't encountered an engine where the crank gear wasn't driving both...

 

It's so simple though... at least for me... to go ahead and remove the crank... and do it right... (you probably recall... I'm the nut who doesn't like any ...ANY... metal flakes in the engine)...

 

On another note... I hate go go back down that road... but... I am sincerely... eh... intrigued... how exactly someone gets metal flakes in an engine when they "hone" it... common practice is to disassemble the engine completely... and cleanse the engine after honing.
 

Anyway... RZ's example is exactly why I just personally don't like hammering any parts of an engine... you just never know if you are going to miss some material and that do much more damage. Some people do the procedure without issue... but I still worry...

 

Don

[ebinmaine 67,659]

Here's a few threads I found using the search words "balance gears chisel". 

 

I clicked "and" below the search window to get there.  

 

I've not read any. Just figured they might help....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kpinnc 12,104]

The last set I removed was a learning experience because that is all I opened the block for. From what I can tell, the top gear removal difficulty is directly dependent on the throw of the crank. Ex: K241/ M10 easy, K321/ M14 not so much.

 

Removed the bottom gear on a K321 by pulling the clip. Lower gear slides right out. Drove out the pin for the top one, and that was fairly simple. As said here before, polishing the pin made reinstalling easier. 

 

I haven't tried chiseling one out. I'm sure there is a trick to it, but haven't tried it myself. Knowing my luck, I'd crack the block. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by kpinnc

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Yesterday I took them out of my K301.  I was quite surprised at how easily the gear shattered.  The trick is to go for the 'webbed' part of the gear, NOT the half that's solid all the way through.

 

 

In the K301, the crank is not the 'inhibitor' to getting the top gear out, it's this protrusion in the casting.  If that weren't there, you could position the crank and the gear would slide right off.

 

 

Here's a video of  how loose they were:

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/y4VLAPSApdETinL58

 

I believe that the cause of the gears exploding is that when they loosen up and have too much end play or side wobble, the part of the balance gear and the crank gear at the red arrow contact each other and there is a gear shattering KABOOM!

 

 

I'm putting it back together today and will report back if this has cured the knock in my engine.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

OK then... she's all back together.

 

I'm happy to report that the heavy 'knock' that I was hearing is now gone, so it WAS the balance gears making the noise.

 

However, now that the big noise is gone, I'm hearing other noises... ain't that always the way?

 

Possibly piston slap... not sure... and not gonna worry about it at this point.  Gonna run it till it busts something!  

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

1 minute ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Possibly piston slap... not sure...

Send me a video of the sound you hear whenever you get a chance Jeff... I may have some thoughts...

 

Don

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Just now, Snoopy11 said:

Send me a video of the sound you hear whenever you get a chance Jeff... I may have some thoughts...

 

Don

 

Will do!

 

But, before you say valve tap... I adjusted them.  Cam end play is fine, lobes are fine, couldn't really get a good indication of crank end play but I'm sure it's in spec.

The rod 'felt' OK, I did not remove the cap, but there was no excessive play.

There was ZERO metal stuff in the bottom of the pan.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

But, before you say valve tap

AND piston slop?

 

Don

[RED-Z06 2,221]

14 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 Gonna run it till it busts something!  

 

 

 

I got absolutely dragged for saying this a few months ago after i developed a knock, then replaced the Rod, piston, rings, measured crank, bore...but it still made the same noise...🤣

 

Im still running that M12 all the time, sounds the same, 75 hours since the rebuild, an oil change, spread 2 loads of crushed asphalt on Friday, tank and a half of gas at full throttle..🤣

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

44 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

AND piston slop?

 

Don

 

I didn't pull the head... yet.  I can do that more easily with the engine on the manchine so I waited.

I have the head gasket, I may still do that just to clean out the combustion chamber, but, on the other hand, I may not!  

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

38 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

got absolutely dragged for saying this a few months ago

 

I think I remember that...  I might even have ragged on you myself!  

 

And by the way... I didn't really notice any 'extra' vibration after removing the gears.  My toochas still gets a nice massage.

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

19 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I think I remember that...  I might even have ragged on you myself!  

 

And by the way... I didn't really notice any 'extra' vibration after removing the gears.  My toochas still gets a nice massage.

 

Ive been running my Vtwins for a while and when i hopped on the 312 the other day it was like riding a paint shaker in comparison 🤣

[Handy Don 12,237]

2 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

Ive been running my Vtwins for a while and when i hopped on the 312 the other day it was like riding a paint shaker in comparison 🤣

Twins are nice, especially OHV V's.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Handy Don

[RED-Z06 2,221]

46 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Twins are nice, especially OHV V's.

Yep, love em, Got Kohler Commands on my Exmark Lazer, Cub Z Force, Simplicity Legacy, Briggs Twin on a Yazoo Kees MidMax Z, Kohler 7000 Pro on a Hustler Raptor, Onan Twin on the 416-H, but..the rest are Kohler Singles

[oliver2-44 9,761]

As Jeff showed above, the gears will easily shatter with a chisel and a sharp lick with a hammer. No need to pound them. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

9 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

sharp lick

 

'Zackly.  You don't need to wail the pi55 outta them.  Make sure the chisel is sharp.  Place it between two teeth on the webbed side of the gear and give it a good sharp smack with a ball pein hammer.  You may or may not have to turn it a bit and repeat if enough didn't break the first time.  Make sure when you're done to account for all the pieces!  Chances are if any are left inside that they'll fall into the pan when the engine is righted, but take your time to get the pieces out.

[RED-Z06 2,221]

21 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

'Zackly.  You don't need to wail the pi55 outta them.  Make sure the chisel is sharp.  Place it between two teeth on the webbed side of the gear and give it a good sharp smack with a ball pein hammer.  You may or may not have to turn it a bit and repeat if enough didn't break the first time.  Make sure when you're done to account for all the pieces!  Chances are if any are left inside that they'll fall into the pan when the engine is righted, but take your time to get the pieces out.

Think an air chisel might give more control?