starter generator -volt meter

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

I have been working it out on a 3 position ignition and starter generator. I have the generator failure light easy enough, now it's a volt meter? I can go to ground anywhere but power in would have to indicate a charge, not just 12 volts. My meter has power off the same circuit as the coil. Although this will show 12 v, it will not show a charge. Can this be done in this circuit without an additional off switch for the volt meter? Can I come off the field wire on the generator? Really with the generator warning light, I do not need a volt meter, but the hole was in the dash column so...

 

                                                   Current Circuit strictly 12 v indication

 

                                                             Proposed Circuit 12 v charge indication?

 Concerns are field circuit would be erratic for a charge indicator? Perhaps remove the gauge and install a plug, lol!

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,915]

Follow the drawing.

The battery voltage will increase as the charge current charges the battery. That is what you want to monitor.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

4 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Follow the drawing.

The battery voltage will increase as the charge current charges the battery. That is what you want to monitor.

Right, but where to draw 12v from? If off the battery circuit the gauge would remain on. Do you understand my question? I drew the drawing as an example of what I want to do...

Edited June 24, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,915]

The voltmeter is really connected to the Bat+ through the ignition switch when the ignition switch is in the RUN or START position.

With key OFF no power to the ignition circuit or voltmeter.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

10 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

The voltmeter is really connected to the Bat+ through the ignition switch when the ignition switch is in the RUN or START position.

With key OFF no power to the ignition circuit or voltmeter.

Not so, the circuit remains hot on the battery side if a gauge is interrupting the power. So where would I pick up the 12v for the volt meter? Off the ignition there is no R position, power usually comes from L on the regulator for lights, etc. , here I can jump in with a switch. You have S, I and B. Cannot use S. B will remain hot without a separate off switch for the gauge. So, right back to I. Field is not an option, is it?

Edited June 24, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[953 nut 54,328]

Your first drawing with the volt meter on the ignition would be the way to go.         The unregulated voltage coming from the "F" terminal wouldn't be a good indication of charging if the regulator wasn't closing.

Your Generator Warning light will have voltage applied to both wires while the S/G is producing a charging voltage but the slight (2 volts +/-) amount of difference is not enough to make the lamp glow. 

[J854D 134]

Your first diagram will work just fine. You can pick up the connection for the voltmeter + terminal at the coil + terminal or the ign. terminal at the switch. As @gwest_ca pointed out the voltmeter will then show system voltage as the generator is charging. And the voltmeter will be switched off, the same as the coil, when the ignition switch is turned to off. -JD-

[Handy Don 11,879]

All of the above is good info but the only certain way to know a battery is receiving charge is to measure the current flow into it via an ammeter or a properly sized diode controlled lamp or an LED. That’s why early WHs had ammeters. 

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

1 hour ago, J854D said:

Your first diagram will work just fine. You can pick up the connection for the voltmeter + terminal at the coil + terminal or the ign. terminal at the switch. As @gwest_ca pointed out the voltmeter will then show system voltage as the generator is charging. And the voltmeter will be switched off, the same as the coil, when the ignition switch is turned to off. -JD-

I wasn't sure the I circuit would show anymore than 12v while running, that is how it is set up right now. I have yet to run the engine for any duration as yet, only a few test runs so really couldn't see the gauge whle running. I know the I circuit will turn on/off alright just didn't think the gauge would do more than show 12v.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

23 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

All of the above is good info but the only certain way to know a battery is receiving charge is to measure the current flow into it via an ammeter or a properly sized diode controlled lamp or an LED. That’s why early WHs had ammeters. 

Yes, ammeters are fine but dangerous if they fail, seen enough fried harnesses from that!

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

Your first drawing with the volt meter on the ignition would be the way to go.         The unregulated voltage coming from the "F" terminal wouldn't be a good indication of charging if the regulator wasn't closing.

Your Generator Warning light will have voltage applied to both wires while the S/G is producing a charging voltage but the slight (2 volts +/-) amount of difference is not enough to make the lamp glow. 

I agree on the field not being steady, had to ask, rather than trying it! My question was about the 12v increasing on the gauge while in the I circuit and not off the B. The generator light works, it glows when the ignition is on and then stops while the generator is turning. So, you think the light will not function? It is wired in same as the early 1045.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

I appreciate the input and have  stayed with the first drawing. I will be firing it up some time today for the first run, curious to see if the gauge will show voltage increase? I mean if the voltage increased on the I circuit, wouldn't the coil get higher voltage as well? Or is that part of the condenser's job? Sorry to be so redundant, just want to be sure on circuitry as much as possible and who better to ask, right? Lol! Perhaps a stroll through the Big Show would be a nice day out, anyone going?

Edited June 24, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[J854D 134]

When the generator is charging the battery (for example at 14 volts) then the whole system will be at 14 volts including at the ignition coil. In 12 volt battery ignition systems the coil uses either an internal or external resistor to reduce the voltage to the points to about 9 volts to keep them from overheating. (in the case of Wheel Horse it is an internal resistor) Once you start the engine and let it run for a bit you should see the voltage climb up on your gauge. You could verify the reading on your gauge with a DVOM connected to the battery pos. & neg. terminals. -JD-

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

6 minutes ago, J854D said:

When the generator is charging the battery (for example at 14 volts) then the whole system will be at 14 volts including at the ignition coil. In 12 volt battery ignition systems the coil uses either an internal or external resistor to reduce the voltage to the points to about 9 volts to keep them from overheating. (in the case of Wheel Horse it is an internal resistor) Once you start the engine and let it run for a bit you should see the voltage climb up on your gauge. You could verify the reading on your gauge with a DVOM connected to the battery pos. & neg. terminals. -JD-

Now that is what I was trying to learn beforehand, and exactly what I wanted to know! Thank you very much!

[953 nut 54,328]

12 hours ago, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

The generator light works, it glows when the ignition is on and then stops while the generator is turning. So, you think the light will not function? It is wired in same as the early 1045.

It will continue to work as it does now, the point was that it measures the difference battery and the armature voltage which will actually cause a slight flow through the generator lamp but not enough to cause it to glow brightly enough to be seen. When generator voltage is  a couple volts higher than the battery the small current flow felt by the lamp isn't enough to make visible light. Nothing wrong with keeping the GEN. light and volt meter.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

28 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

It will continue to work as it does now, the point was that it measures the difference battery and the armature voltage which will actually cause a slight flow through the generator lamp but not enough to cause it to glow brightly enough to be seen. When generator voltage is  a couple volts higher than the battery the small current flow felt by the lamp isn't enough to make visible light. Nothing wrong with keeping the GEN. light and volt meter.

Well, I pulled the regulator and double-checked all my terminals. I re-tested the generator, both start & field. While the pulley is spinning from start I energize field and it comes to a halt. I did not get it running and remove the wires then run a jumper across A-F, measure with my multimeter as the carb gaskets dried up on me and she began leaking! While it did run the warning light was lit pretty good. I don't know if it matters but that light is 28 v. The generator tested good so wondering if the regulator was a turd, even new electronics can be faulty.

She wants to run just strange I didn't see the gauge increase volts and it bounced around pretty good! Bummer the fuel leak brought it all to a halt and I pulled the carb as well. I have another carb on reserve as my gasket sets are all.

 

Left to right,

Field, Battery and Lights

Underside

Generator?

 

I ran the jumper for G to A

ISavetractors carburetor until I can find a quality gasket set for the original

Edited June 25, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

The bouncing voltmeter! Stays at 12 v...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[adsm08 1,845]

24 minutes ago, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

Well, I pulled the regulator and double-checked all my terminals. I re-tested the generator, both start & field. While the pulley is spinning from start I energize field and it comes to a halt. I did not get it running and remove the wires then run a jumper across A-F, measure with my multimeter as the carb gaskets dried up on me and she began leaking! While it did run the warning light was lit pretty good. I don't know if it matters but that light is 28 v. The generator tested good so wondering if the regulator was a turd, even new electronics can be faulty.

She wants to run just strange I didn't see the gauge increase volts and it bounced around pretty good! Bummer the fuel leak brought it all to a halt and I pulled the carb as well. I have another carb on reserve as my gasket sets are all.

 

Left to right,

Field, Battery and Lights

Underside

Generator?

 

 

 

 

Underside is the A (armature) terminal. Should run to the A/G lug closest to the engine, along with the heavy cable.

 

Briefly connect it to the battery positive to polarize the regulator.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

8 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

Underside is the A (armature) terminal. Should run to the A/G lug closest to the engine, along with the heavy cable.

 

Briefly connect it to the battery positive to polarize the regulator.

Now you say briefly, connect while running then disconnect it? Is this why you had an alligator clip? Having to polarize repeatedly?

Edited June 25, 2022 by "Manic-Mechanic"

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

Now this one only has three terminals. I never had to temporally jump A-G on any other before?

 

https://brillman.com/product/12-volt-delco-voltage-regulator-standard-quality/

[adsm08 1,845]

I think this is the one I have on mine.

 

https://brillman.com/product/12-volt-delco-type-voltage-regulator-premium/

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,915]

I recall SOI stating it is not necessary to polarize the generator. When you go to START that automatically does the polarizing.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

44 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

I recall SOI stating it is not necessary to polarize the generator. When you go to START that automatically does the polarizing.

Does the old school method for testing the generator really work? Get the pulley going good then moving the 12v to Field and see if it stops? Is there a way to rule out the regulator itself, a bench test? I looked all through the manuals again and couldn't find any methods for this? I truly do not know if this new regulator is bad or what, hate to just throw parts at it.

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

3 hours ago, adsm08 said:

I think this is the one I have on mine.

 

https://brillman.com/product/12-volt-delco-type-voltage-regulator-premium/

That's the better of the lot, once I can figure out if mine is bad, then that would be my choice. Made in the USA still moves me toward that product.

[adsm08 1,845]

3 hours ago, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

Does the old school method for testing the generator really work? Get the pulley going good then moving the 12v to Field and see if it stops? Is there a way to rule out the regulator itself, a bench test? I looked all through the manuals again and couldn't find any methods for this? I truly do not know if this new regulator is bad or what, hate to just throw parts at it.

 

Seems to me that would only show which set of coils is stronger, or if they are well matched. Sending it full-field while running would show maximum potential output.