Kohler K161T 28937E Timing Confusion

[rmaynard 15,509]

I should know this, but as age creeps up on me, things aren't as they appear.

I am trying to static time my K161. It is not ready to run, but I'm trying to do the basics before I button it up.

 

I replaced the magneto. Also replaced the points and condenser. Here is where the mystery begins.

I set the points to .020

I attached my meter and rotated the flywheel in a clockwise direction until the points just opened. 

At this point, here is what appears in the timing inspection hole.

 

As you can see, points setting of .020 lines up at just past the T line.

 

Next step is to rotate again until the S mark is in the middle of the window as shown below

 

 

At this point, I adjust the points until they just open.  Now I rotate the flywheel to open the points all the way and they read .035.

I rotate the flywheel again, and just as before. The points just open at the S line, and the gap is .035.

 

Now here is the curious thing. The Kohler service manual has the following on static timing:

 

 

So what is this supposed to be telling me? Am I supposed to set the gap at .020 and ignore the S mark? 

Does this have anything to do with the fact that this is not an ACR equipped engine and that it might timing advance on the cam?

I have read other places that you set the points to begin opening at the S mark and ignore whatever the points gap is.

 

Color me confused.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by rmaynard

[JoeM 7,874]

3 hours ago, rmaynard said:

 

So what is this supposed to be telling me? Am I supposed to set the gap at .020 and ignore the S mark?

Yes that is what I had to do. Nothing made sense except going back to the old way of when the pin is all the way out, set the gap.

 

This is copied from a thread I wrote a few months ago. 

So now I am looking at the point setting and timing. Lined up the S mark and used a continuity test for open and close. She would not even try to start. In the beginning I installed new points using the old compression stroke with the pin out and set them at .020. I went back to this method and set them a tight .018. It ran and the vibrations are much less. 

 

Now to my question, I put a mark on the flywheel at the place where the points are fully open and that mark it not even close to the flywheel timing marks. Could this motor have a special camshaft for pulling??

That mark I put on the flywheel lines up with key way on the crankshaft. I wanted to change the flywheel but it looks like the guy anti seize it and tightened up good. Had the big puller and some heat and a rap from ball peen. no go just let it go.

Edited June 16, 2022 by JoeM

[Achto 27,600]

3 hours ago, rmaynard said:

Does this have anything to do with the fact that this is not an ACR equipped engine and that it might timing advance on the cam?

 

Thought that I read that you can't static time an engine with a timing advance cam. 

[rmaynard 15,509]

24 minutes ago, JoeM said:

Yes that is what I had to do. Nothing made sense except going back to the old way of when the pin is all the way out, set the gap.

I've been thinking about this all day, and the only thing that makes sense is to set the points to .020 and ignore the flywheel marks. 

 

Thanks for your info 

[rmaynard 15,509]

18 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

Thought that I read that you can't static time an engine with a timing advance cam. 

The Kohler manual says using a timing light is recommended, but static timing can be used but it's less accurate. 

[squonk 41,150]

With the spark advance cam the points will be opening late when cranking over. This will make the points just start to open at the T (TDC) on SA. engines instead of the S mark on ACR engines. It's not much of an adjustment so that's why a timing light is more accurate. The late spark makes it easier to pull the rope.

Edited June 16, 2022 by squonk

[953 nut 55,297]

Bob, the manual on our site is for newer engines that have the ACR camshaft. Here is information I have shared here numerous times.

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine. The other way to determine what camshaft you have is to remove the cam gear cover and take a look. If you see a mechanism attached to the cam gear it is the ACR cam.

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

[squonk 41,150]

Small block will have no cover. An easy way to tell is turn the engine over slowly. Put your hand over the exhaust. If you feel a puff of air as the engine is on the compression stroke you have an ACR engine.

[rmaynard 15,509]

12 hours ago, squonk said:

Small block will have no cover. An easy way to tell is turn the engine over slowly. Put your hand over the exhaust. If you feel a puff of air as the engine is on the compression stroke you have an ACR engine.

I took the head off and checked the exhaust valve. It does not move except on the exhaust stroke.

[squonk 41,150]

5 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I took the head off and checked the exhaust valve. It does not move except on the exhaust stroke.

Spark advance then.

[rmaynard 15,509]

24 minutes ago, squonk said:

Spark advance then.

 

[rmaynard 15,509]

RESOLVED

Set gap to .020

Started, ran fine.

 

Static timing ended up around 10° beyond TDC.

 

Thanks for all the help.