1977 C160 Auto... Pieces.

[Mike C160 251]

@stevasaurus

(or anyone else who knows this trick)

 

The two shafts that are driven by the hydro motor and transfer power to the Differential...

 

How do you set end play when you are replacing bearings?

 

 The right hand side of the case has thrust surfaces machined into it. The left hand side does not. That suggests to me bearing depth on the left side of the case sets shaft end play.

 

A reasonable path forward seems to be to put one shaft in at time to dry fit it with no case gasket, press in the left side bearings till there is zero end play. Once the gasket is installed, that would induce a minimal amount of end play equal to the thickness of the gasket. Which seems ample to me. 

 

Or is there another prescribed method of setting end play??

 

Cheers and Thanks!

Edited June 15, 2022 by Mike C160

[ebinmaine 67,589]

Far as I know the bearings are set to "flush with case". No other end play measurement. 

I'll be curious to see if there's a different/better answer.  

[Mike C160 251]

47 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Far as I know the bearings are set to "flush with case". No other end play measurement. 

I'll be curious to see if there's a different/better answer.  

 

The center one here on the left side was not set flush. Note the left side also has no thrust surfaces. The ones on the other side were a few thou less than flush (recessed.) and have machined thrust surfaces. This suggest the bearing caps on the left side set end play. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Mike C160

[ebinmaine 67,589]

@stevasaurus @daveoman1966 any thoughts? 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

The end cap bearings are set flush with the outside of the case..always.  The #1533 bearing is set flush with the holding hole.  All the regular needle bearings are set in enough to have the seal set flush with the outside of case...about 1/8" +.  It is that simple.  Cap bearings tap in from the outside of the case, so do the needle bearings that get seals.  Do anything else and you run the risk of the case not closing and pinching the shafts.  Remember, these are not Corvettes.  

   If there was a thrust washer in place, make sure you put it back in.

[WHX?? 48,828]

10 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

The end cap bearings are set flush with the outside of the case..always.  

Is that right Dino? I always set set them all flush will the inside plus say a 1/16 keep the shaft from wearing on the bearing cage. I have yet to do a hydro knock on wood. 

[pfrederi 17,741]

16 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Is that right Dino? I always set set them all flush will the inside plus say a 1/16 keep the shaft from wearing on the bearing cage. I have yet to do a hydro knock on wood. 

There is no real difference between Hydro Transaxles and gear drives (just fewer gears shafts.)  Keep the closed end bearings flush with outside of case.  You don't want teh shaft ends rubbing on the the bearing end cap..

Edited June 15, 2022 by pfrederi

[stevasaurus 22,764]

Exactly Paul.    I've seen a few transmissions where the shaft has worn through the end of a cap bearing, and they were all inset.

[Mike C160 251]

9 hours ago, pfrederi said:

There is no real difference between Hydro Transaxles and gear drives (just fewer gears shafts.)  Keep the closed end bearings flush with outside of case.  You don't want teh shaft ends rubbing on the the bearing end cap..

 

What controls the gear set . from striking this side of the case? Note it has no thrust surface.

 

 

 

[Mike C160 251]

10 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Remember, these are not Corvettes.  

  

 

No they certainly arent. If they were, there would be coat hangers washers and duct tape involved.

[rjg854 11,378]

I'm pretty sure I have seen those models of Wheel Horse sold before, may have even bought one  

[stevasaurus 22,764]

@Mike C160 , I really do not know how much movement the individual shafts have.  The shafts, being horizontal, may have some movement, but when these transmissions last over 50-60 years...it seems like that is OK.  Maybe they are self-centering??  BTW, the gaskets are 1/32" thick.  If you build your transmission, like we are telling you and following the manual, you will be fine.  

[Mike C160 251]

 

Well.....

My bearings came today.... I'd like to say all is well, but its not. The one side of the case is done with all new bearings and seals thru out.

But the bearing circled above is too deep. Even tho the new bearing and old bearings have EXACTLY the the same number, M16101, the new one is much deeper. 

If I install it so its flush with the outter case, it protrudes into the case and the gear shown above will rub on the outter race and the bearing will fail quickly. If I install it so its flush with the inner case, it will interfere with installation of the pump....

 

To be continued....

 

[Mike C160 251]

 

 

^^^This is the depth of the old one in mm.^^^

 

 

 

^^^ this is the depth of the new one in mm^^^ you can see its much deeper.

 

So I have a choice to make. Reinstall the old one and hope for the best, or cut a matching hole in the pump gasket  to allow that bearing to stick out 3 10ths and again hope for the best.

 

Just Ducky. 

[ebinmaine 67,589]

9 hours ago, Mike C160 said:

Reinstall the old one and hope for the best

Likely this is what I would do. Does the old bearing appear to roll evenly and feel okay if you stick your pinky finger in there and roll it around a few times?

[Mike C160 251]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Likely this is what I would do. Does the old bearing appear to roll evenly and feel okay if you stick your pinky finger in there and roll it around a few times?

 

Hey Eric,

 

Yeah I taken a good hard look at it already. Two things bother me about the old one. First on the outside, you can see the bearing has been blued. Was this from the manufacturing of this bearing? Or did it get hot? Secondly, why did the one on the other side of the case fail? the side of the case came off and it dumped its needles into the oil below.

 

Either option im not wild about. However I will likely try cutting the gasket to see if I can make the new one fit. Once I do that I will have to make a choice.

 

Do these needle bearings fail often?

 

Cheers

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Mike C160

[cafoose 3,355]

Maybe if you can find another one closer to the proper dimensions that would work? @stevasaurus @wheelhorseman

thoughts?

[Mike C160 251]

1 minute ago, cafoose said:

Maybe if you can find another one closer to the proper dimensions that would work? @stevasaurus @wheelhorseman

thoughts?

 

Love to get another in a heart beat. But im in Canada and it takes 3 weeks to get anything where i am. I need to get this back together. 

 

What you guys find easy to get is usually hell for me.

 

Cheers

Edited July 1, 2022 by Mike C160

[cafoose 3,355]

https://www.bearingscanada.com/Roller-Bearing-s/2050.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=2050&show=15&page=4

 

https://ntn.ca/products/needle-roller-bearings/

 

http://www.dincanada.com/

 

@gwest_ca any thoughts on bearing suppliers in Canada?

[Mike C160 251]

9 minutes ago, cafoose said:

https://www.bearingscanada.com/Roller-Bearing-s/2050.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=2050&show=15&page=4

 

https://ntn.ca/products/needle-roller-bearings/

 

http://www.dincanada.com/

 

@gwest_ca any thoughts on bearing suppliers in Canada?

 

Thank you for the references. But this is exactly my plight. Two of those companies dont sell to the public and the third doesnt have a listing for an M16101.

 

Just Ducky

 

Cheers

[stevasaurus 22,764]

M-16101...the letter and numbers mean this.  "M" is a cap bearing.  The numbers are in 16th of an inch.  The "16" means the ID of the bearing is 16/16" or 1".  The "10" means the height of the bearing or 10/16" or 5/8".  The last number "1", I have no idea..  

   16 mm should be close to 5/8"   Does your old bearing match up to your new one??

[Mike C160 251]

Just now, stevasaurus said:

 Does your old bearing match up to your new one??

 

Not even close. See the photos of the caliper measurements above. 15.67 vs 16.00mm. The 16 new bearing is too long for the case. Factory spec on that bearing is 15.88mm. Even the original torrington unit is smaller.

[stevasaurus 22,764]

The manual shows 4-18 to be WH #1849.  I do not have a cross over for that bearing number.  If you need a bearing with less height, see if they make a KOYO #M-16081.  That would measure 1/2" high.   I wonder if TORO still has the #1849 bearing??  Did you get your bearings from Lowell??

[Mike C160 251]

Just now, stevasaurus said:

The manual shows 4-18 to be WH #1849.  I do not have a cross over for that bearing number.  If you need a bearing with less height, see if they make a KOYO #M-16081.  That would measure 1/2" high.   I wonder if TORO still has the #1849 bearing??  Did you get your bearings from Lowell??

I did indeed get this bearing from Lowell. He measured his stock of M16101s and they all came up over sized. I have no idea of who the manufacturer is.

 

However if i install this new bearing with it hanging out on the pump side 2 tenths of a mm, I can cut the pump gasket to allow for that I think. The pump gasket is quite thick. 0.75mm. Assuming 30% compression when torqued down, there should be enough room.... just...

[stevasaurus 22,764]

Torrington is KOYO.  Probably what Lowell has for his bearings to send.  Do you have a TORO dealer up there?