Grrrrrrr!!!!

[Mike C160 251]

Ok. Now imma grumpy.

 

I just got the motor running tickety-boo. Starts great, high speed great, idles like a harley... The whole shootin match.

 

Then something triggers to me that it might not be charging. For the first time since I got the machine, I decide maybe a better look at the amp meter.  Well, I never noticed before, but its a brand new volt gauge! Running at high speed it shows 12v on the button. Alarm bells are ringing now.

 

So I put my multi meter across the battery while running high. It shows 0.00!!.....It shut the machine off, and it shows 12.55 ......More alarm bells. But imma pretty sure the Regulator is fried at this point. I assume AC was flooding my multi meter while it was on DC.

 

So I pull the regulator /  gauge panel. My goodness. The wiring it a mess around the gauge.....And around a few other things.....

 

The people who had this unit before me stated they "Restored it" So if they "Restored it", I guess im now going to have to resurrect it after they restored it. I wish people who cant, dont. 98% of my time on this unit so far has been putting things back the way the factory intended. 

 

So I dont have a replacement wheel horse regulator but I do have modern day equivalent to install. I also have a proper spare amp gauge I can put in too. 

 

I will go thru the wiring with a fine tooth comb and put it all back as per spec.

 

Grrr. Never a dull moment at camp Mike.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Mike C160

[squonk 41,150]

So you know, a lot of digital multimeters will often produce wacky readings around a running Wheel Horse. Sometimes they are fine. doesn't matter if it's 3 dollar Horror Fright meter or a $300 Fluke. I like to double check with an analog meter.

[Mike C160 251]

1 minute ago, squonk said:

So you know, a lot of digital multimeters will often produce wacky readings around a running Wheel Horse. Sometimes they are fine. doesn't matter if it's 3 dollar Horror Fright meter or a $300 Fluke. I like to double check with an analog meter.

 

The meter i used worked fine on the 8 speed... so I assume.....

 

What is the normal charging voltage at high speed on these motors do you know???

 

Cheers

[Handy Don 12,235]

At full throttle, expect 14.3-14.5 vdc.

[Mike C160 251]

Just now, Handy Don said:

At full throttle, expect 14.3-14.5 vdc.

 

Dandy. Thanks.

 

Do the regulators fail much?

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

Much is subjective, of course. I don't have experience with the regulators on the C's but I'm sure other will have some to share.

In all the years I've worked with small engines, I've had two bad regulators (K181 S/G and Onan P218) and both were on new-to-me purchases!

[Achto 27,601]

1 hour ago, Mike C160 said:

I also have a proper spare amp gauge I can put in too.

 

I would forget the amp meter and keep the volt meter. If an amp meter shorts out it can start your wiring on fire. If a volt meter fails it just quite working.  I replace all of my amp meters with volt meters. If you are going to keep the amp meter install a fuse on the power "in" side of the meter.

 

1 hour ago, Mike C160 said:

Do the regulators fail much?

 

Not an uncommon occurrence. If you have good AC voltage but only battery voltage (not charging) then you have one of these issues.

1 - The regulator has a bad ground.

2 - There is no "+" DC power getting to the center or lower DC terminal on the regulator when the switch is in the "ON" position.

3 - You have a bad regulator.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Achto

[Mike C160 251]

1 hour ago, Achto said:

 

I would forget the amp meter and keep the volt meter. If an amp meter shorts out it can start your wiring on fire. If a volt meter fails it just quite working.  I replace all of my amp meters with volt meters. If you are going to keep the amp meter install a fuse on the power "in" side of the meter.

 

 

Not an uncommon occurrence. If you have good AC voltage but only battery voltage (not charging) then you have one of these issues.

1 - The regulator has a bad ground.

2 - There is no "+" DC power getting to the center or lower DC terminal on the regulator when the switch is in the "ON" position.

3 - You have a bad regulator.

 

Amp meter fuse. Noted. I will pick up 2 new fuse links next time im in town. 

[Mike C160 251]

Well,

 

Its charging again. And it wasnt just one thing. Apart from the regulator being toast, I dont know why they did it, they had wiring messed up at the ignition switch too. The fact it started and ran was a miracle. But Accessories was mixed up with regulator out put..... I can only assume this mess fried the Reg. I can clearly see they were working at that plug at the back of the ignition switch. Those connectors were in and out of that plug a few times. I can only guess the amp gauge failed and left everything dead. 

 

I stole the gauge panel and reg from my 8 speed for now to verify everything is now correct. So now to neaten it all up so it looks clean. All new connections are soldered and heat shrunk. I dont expect further issue.

 

Maybe someday I;; get to cut the grass with it.

 

 

[peter lena 8,634]

@Mike C160  very good ground source start point ,is your battery negative cable bolt down point . separate wire  to ground related areas . added that to , dash , headlights , rectifier , electrical mounting points , all reliably working , keep it sparky , pete 

[Mike C160 251]

5 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Mike C160  very good ground source start point ,is your battery negative cable bolt down point . separate wire  to ground related areas . added that to , dash , headlights , rectifier , electrical mounting points , all reliably working , keep it sparky , pete 

 

I hear you. Grounding hasnt yet been a direct issue but as I go I have been removing paint to ensure things that need ground get a good one. There is a heavy ground cable from the battery to the base of the motor. Its too long. I will get some short ones and ground the motor and the frame.

 

Right now as things stand everything electrical are wired and work properly. Even the tail light  

 

My poor 8 speed has suffered  I have robbed some parts from it to get thru all this. I will have to do some ordering to get that one back on line. But the 8 speed motor is due for rebuilding this winter as it burns some oil and crank case pressure is high. 

 

Cheers and Thanks.

[pacer 3,173]

2 hours ago, Achto said:

 

I would forget the amp meter and keep the volt meter. If an amp meter shorts out it can start your wiring on fire.

 

This is highly recommended!! That darn amp gauge on yours couldve very easily caused the whole cascading of your problems. 

 

You asked about regs failing, of the 4-5 that I have had fail all were directly tied to the ammeter!

 

One of the first things I rip out of a 'new' tractor is that blankedy blank ammeter!!!

[Mike C160 251]

8 minutes ago, pacer said:

 

This is highly recommended!! That darn amp gauge on yours couldve very easily caused the whole cascading of your problems. 

 

You asked about regs failing, of the 4-5 that I have had fail all were directly tied to the ammeter!

 

One of the first things I rip out of a 'new' tractor is that blankedy blank ammeter!!!

 

Tell me,

 

What with the amp meter fails? Does it not just go open? 

 

Blankedy blank - Thems some strong words

 

Cheers

[Achto 27,601]

4 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

What with the amp meter fails? Does it not just go open? 

 

They fail & end up shorting out to the body of the gauge. Creating a dead short.

[Mike C160 251]

8 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

They fail & end up shorting out to the body of the gauge. Creating a dead short.

 

OK Now I understand.

 

I have two of them here and they are both plastic body. a 1975 and 1977 C160. Could wheel horse of upgraded them after discovering this issue?

[8ntruck 7,016]

25 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

They fail & end up shorting out to the body of the gauge. Creating a dead short.

Ah.  That might explain one of the electrical 'fixes' on my C195.  The PO obtained it just before the scrap guy.  He tinkered with it enough to get it running.  Said it kept blowing a fuse.  I found the ammeter jumped out.  I've left it that way knowing that it could be the cause, and I haven't taken the time to trouble shoot it.  Now I know what to look for.

[Achto 27,601]

9 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

Could wheel horse of upgraded them after discovering this issue?

 

This is a possibility.

[peter lena 8,634]

@Mike C160  used serrated washers and dielectric grease , to insure  solid grounding and any problem area . as I  went on wiring , changed routing , cable wrapped multiple leads . used hanger mounts  and eliminated tight / chafing wiring points . just detail insured every function , it just kept getting better . know what you are dealing with , frustrating  break , go to something simple /easy , gain and take that and apply the detail to the next area . once I  found my electrical problems , I  made them my strong point , thats what I  try to build into my stuff . today look at things differently , basically  make it bombproof . next improvement , drop the frown , turn it into  a hell yeah !  stay after it , go easy , help is here , pete      

[Mike C160 251]

5 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Mike C160  used serrated washers and dielectric grease , to insure  solid grounding and any problem area . as I  went on wiring , changed routing , cable wrapped multiple leads . used hanger mounts  and eliminated tight / chafing wiring points . just detail insured every function , it just kept getting better . know what you are dealing with , frustrating  break , go to something simple /easy , gain and take that and apply the detail to the next area . once I  found my electrical problems , I  made them my strong point , thats what I  try to build into my stuff . today look at things differently , basically  make it bombproof . next improvement , drop the frown , turn it into  a hell yeah !  stay after it , go easy , help is here , pete      

 

I hear ya,

 

Ive ordered a new plug /  whip lead that goes on the back of the ignition switch. Once that arrives here It is my intent to make a brand new wire harness. All soldered heat shrunk and treated with silicone dielectric grease. Wont go wrong in my life time.

 

those crimp on connects - I take the blue jacket off them, pinch them on, then solder and cover with heat shrink tubing. Never goes bad. 

 

Cheers

[Mike C160 251]

1 hour ago, Achto said:

 

This is a possibility.

 

I dont see a way these plastic backed one would short. Even the mounting system they used with these are short proof. Worst that could happen is they go open. 

 

But I certainly understand how the metal backed ones could get exciting in a hurry  Along with the run from the battery to the gauge not being fused. That was a bit of a boo boo. My gauge is plastic and cant short, but imma still gonna put a fuse block in that lead. Prolly one of those GM style fuse holders incased in rubber.  Install it right at the source. 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Mike C160

[oliver2-44 9,759]

I’ll add to the Changing to a Volt Meter discussion. With a volt meter you can see if it’s at 12 volts or 14 volts and immediately know if it’s charging or not. A while back someone posted a nice backlit digital voltmeter they got from the jungle or bay site. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

12 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

Ah.  That might explain one of the electrical 'fixes' on my C195.  The PO obtained it just before the scrap guy.  He tinkered with it enough to get it running.  Said it kept blowing a fuse.  I found the ammeter jumped out.  I've left it that way knowing that it could be the cause, and I haven't taken the time to trouble shoot it.  Now I know what to look for.

Remember that a working ammeter does have continuity across the terminals. If it didn't, no current could flow. It's "open" or shorted to the case that are failures.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Handy Don

[8ntruck 7,016]

Yup.  It should have continuity across the terminals, but no continuity from the terminal to ground.  That meter is held in the panel with a U shaped metal strap that is fastened in the Wheel Horse efficient (cheap) way using insulators and nuts on the meter input terminals.