K341 / 160 Compression Release

[Mike C160 251]

Greetings.

 

Im just thinking out loud here hoping some of you have some experience with this as Im not sure what im dealing with yet.

 

1977 C160 with K341.

 

When cold the the starter almost stop while cranking the engine. Doesnt fully stop but almost. It will usually go on to start the motor.

 

However, once warm this almost stopping problem goes away.  (not the battery) And it starts fine.

 

Another clue is, the starter was rebuilt as some point in its life, it has the sticker on it of a local auto electric shop.

 

So Im wondering if the starter is just pooched or maybe the automatic compression release isnt working.

 

Anyone familiar with this issue? 

 

Cheers and thanks.

[ebinmaine 67,590]

My first thought is bad ground. 

 

Has this tractor ever had the wiring FULLY restored?

 

Does the starter have a very good ground?

 

How do you know the battery is actually good? Load tested?

 

[WHX?? 48,828]

Sounds typical of a cold motor. Check the battery and all connections including grounds. How old is the battery could be something as simple as a weak battery. After it gets running and receives a little boost from  from a proper charging system may put a little extra boost in an older batt letting it start easier when warm.  Changing to a muti vis oil may help a little but is not a cure to what's wrong. Does help in temps below freezing tho. 

[953 nut 55,297]

[Mike C160 251]

9 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

My first thought is bad ground. 

 

Has this tractor ever had the wiring FULLY restored?

 

Does the starter have a very good ground?

 

How do you know the battery is actually good? Load tested?

 

To answer your questions,

Wiring is not fully restored. Much of it is new including a new ground strap that goes directly to the motor.

 

Im hoping the starter has a good ground... but I can jump it with booster cables to check.

 

Right away i suspected the battery, so I stole a good one out of my C160 8 speed. No change in this stopping issue. Nattery know as good. Starts my 8 speed C160 easy.

 

 

[Mike C160 251]

12 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Sounds typical of a cold motor. Check the battery and all connections including grounds. How old is the battery could be something as simple as a weak battery. After it gets running and receives a little boost from  from a proper charging system may put a little extra boost in an older batt letting it start easier when warm.  Changing to a muti vis oil may help a little but is not a cure to what's wrong. Does help in temps below freezing tho. 

So,

 

If the ACS is bad, I hear the unit wont want to crank at all. Is that correct?

[Mike C160 251]

11 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

 

Imma starting to get the feeling this plaque is used often  lol

[WHX?? 48,828]

Lol....It's Richards fav and he's old so we give him a break!

Problem I have with load testing Richard, with my HF cheapy load tester,  is it will say a battery is ok but my instincts given batt  age and other factors doubts that. 

Sounds like you might have a starter issue but one way to check to see if the ACR is working is turning the motor over by hand. It should feel like ther is no compression. Only true way to check it is pop the head and visual. 

If the ACR is indeed not working as should you would most likely have the same problem on hot starts. 

I forgot to add guy that ACR is pretty fool proof but the hair springs in it have know to go bad. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by WHX??

[Mike C160 251]

11 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Lol....It's Richards fav and he's old so we give him a break!

Problem I have with load testing Richard, with my HF cheapy load tester,  is it will say a battery is ok but my instincts given batt  age and other factors doubts that. 

Sounds like you might have a starter issue but one way to check to see if the ACR is working is turning the motor over by hand. It should feel like ther is no compression. Only true way to check it is pop the head and visual. 

If the ACR is indeed not working as should you would most likely have the same problem on hot starts. 

I forgot to add guy that ACR is pretty fool proof but the hair springs in it have know to go bad. 

 

Are those hair springs replaceable do you know? 

 

Im thinkin' its the starter... the local rebuilders arent the brightest stars in the night sky  And it look like it was rebuild some time ago.

 

Thanks. 

[ebinmaine 67,590]

2 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

 

Are those hair springs replaceable do you know? 

 

Im thinkin' its the starter... the local rebuilders arent the brightest stars in the night sky  And it look like it was rebuild some time ago.

 

Thanks. 

Pop that starter off and tear it apart. 

Super easy.  

Clean 'er up. Replace the bushings. Check the brushes. 

Check the magnets. 

 

Good to go.  

 

 

[953 nut 55,297]

10 hours ago, Mike C160 said:

Im thinkin' its the starter..

You could swap out the known good starter from the other  to see if the problem goes away. It could very well be the starter is dragging a bit but I would think this wouldn't change with engine temperature. I think that new battery cables should be considered too. 

[squonk 41,150]

While the starters off clean the surface of the block and the mounting pads of the starter. Clean the bolt threads. It only takes a little bit of dirt and rust to cause voltage drop. 

[ri702bill 8,327]

11 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Pop that starter off and tear it apart. 

Super easy.  

Clean 'er up. Replace the bushings. Check the brushes. 

Check the magnets. 

Disassembly is super easy - you need to make 4 brush holders for "easy" re-assembly.

Do check the magnets - I had a functional, but sluggish starter on the C81. Pulled it apart - surprise! It must have been dropped because one magnet was broken at one end, yet it worked!! I had a "spare" - did a mix & match of the best pieces - and had to make the 4 brush holders - no more problem. AND added a ground cable to the end cap of the starter ...

Bill

[WHX?? 48,828]

11 hours ago, Mike C160 said:

Are those hair springs replaceable do you know? 

Yes they are put the whole motor has to come apart to almost the last step. @Achto knows he just had to do one on a Case Kohler. 

Lets save that for a last resort! You might be able to check them through the cam cover?? 

[ebinmaine 67,590]

13 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

AND added a ground cable to the end cap of the starter

I've gotten into the habit of putting the negative battery cable directly to one of the starter mount bolts. Not sure if that's practical in all models.

 

 

[Achto 27,601]

8 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Case Kohler. 

Lets save that for a last resort! You might be able to check them through the cam cover?? 

 

12 hours ago, Mike C160 said:

Are those hair springs replaceable do you know? 

 

Actually you only need to remove the oil pan in order to change the ACR spring on the cam. Hardest part is getting it hooked back on in the limited space. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Achto

[Mike C160 251]

3 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

 

Actually you only need to remove the oil pan in order to change the ACR spring on the cam. Hardest part is getting it hooked back on in the limited space. 

 

And now for the 64 dollar question.....

 

Where does one get a spring?

 

Cheers

[Achto 27,601]

Kohler part # 47 089 01-S

[WHX?? 48,828]

9 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

Where does one get a spring?

Dan? @Achto

 

14 minutes ago, Achto said:

Actually you only need to remove the oil pan in order to change the ACR spring on the cam

For some reason I thought it wrapped around the cam. No there is a pin there. 

[Achto 27,601]

4 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Dan? @Achto

 I typed faster than you.

[Mike C160 251]

21 minutes ago, Achto said:

Kohler part # 47 089 01-S

 

 

Awe. No longer available. shucks. 

[Achto 27,601]

3 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

Awe. No longer available. shucks. 

 

Give these guys a call.

https://www.ihccw.com/engineparts.html?product_id=10788

 

Also try here. He may have one from a disassembled engine.

https://a-ztractor.com/

 

 

 

[JoeM 7,874]

Nothing else dragging the crank down? Maybe something on the PTO or hydro (not sure if it is an 8  speed or hydro). 

 

I know the big jug kohler's need starters that are in pretty good condition. I had one with a weak starter that I would wind backward to give it a head start. (to cheap and not much time) lol

[Mike C160 251]

30 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

Give these guys a call.

https://www.ihccw.com/engineparts.html?product_id=10788

 

Also try here. He may have one from a disassembled engine.

https://a-ztractor.com/

 

 

 

 

Ill just add one tidbit here

 

It almost seems like its firing when it almost stops. It really gives me the feeling the timing is a wee bit too advanced.

 

Ive gapped the points a 020. But i saw someone mention gapping them at 018 if you run ethanol. All of our fuel up here has 10% ethanol in it. No escaping it. 

 

Does gapping the points at 018 retard the timing? 

 

Cheers

 

 

[Achto 27,601]

23 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

Does gapping the points at 018 retard the timing? 

 

Yes. A wider gap advances to timing.