New to me Wheel Horse tractors. C-105 and 416-H

[953 nut 55,297]

2 minutes ago, JerryLook said:

I’m going to try running it out of gas via the fuel shutoff on the tank until I can get the carb sorted out.

It may not be the carburetor that is allowing gas to get into the engine oil. If the diaphragm on your fuel pump has a leak it could be the source of the problem. If you can locate a temporary fuel tank above the engine and gravity feed the carburetor for testing that should tell the tale. A lot of us have gone to electric fuel pumps with great success.

[JerryLook 73]

I noticed on Amazon the replacement vacuum fuel pumps were about 15$, and small electric fuel pumps were around 20$. Not much of a price difference 

 

Are you guys just wiring the electric pump into the key switch on position, so it gets power only when the key is on? 

[lynnmor 7,307]

2 hours ago, JerryLook said:

I drained the gas contaminated oil out of the 416 this morning and put new oil in. I’m going to try running it out of gas via the fuel shutoff on the tank until I can get the carb sorted out. 
I suspect it had this issue when it came to me, as the oil was overfilled when I got it. I got an extra carb new in the box with the tractors. I’ll have to look and see which one it’s for. 
 

I also noticed there are carb rebuilt kits available online for the Onan P216 engine. I should probably rebuild it regardless, to get the best performance. With gas prices how they are.... 

 

 

When checking the dipstick on an Onan, always pull it, wipe and then check, the oil climbs up the tube while sitting awhile.  It may be that you have no problem.

 

The real cheap Chinese rebuild kits can have parts that you should not use, the worst is the intake gaskets that turn to mush in a year.  If gasoline is coming in during storage you need to check the gas cap for proper venting.  In order to flood, gas would have to be pushed up and then leak past the float needle, so check the float condition and replace the needle, Chinese needles can have a sharp edge causing them to hang up so use OEM parts.  Usually no carburetor internal parts are needed, just cleaned.  New Chinese carburetors have a poor reputation.

 

Onan twins will never win a fuel efficiency contest, but they will run on any gasoline that has no more than 10% ethanol.

Edited May 26, 2022 by lynnmor

[JerryLook 73]

My typical procedure for checking the oil in any vehicle or equipment is this. Wait at least a few minutes after turning it off to check the level. Pull the dipstick out and wipe it first, then reinsert and check the level on the second pull. 
 

I have an Onan diesel generator in my RV. It’s really a Kubota 3 cyl diesel. Anyways, it’s always been funky about having oil higher the first pull of the dipstick. Where as other engines I check are the same on the first or second pull. It’s strange how that works. 
 

I need to take the carb off and clean it on the 416 anyways. There was evidence of some rodent activity in the engine compartment. I should probably take the side shields off the engine and make sure there is no more nesting material in there. And check the condition of the wiring and fuel lines while I’m in there. 
 

I read that the Onan twins are sensitive to crud buildup on the cooling fins and it causes overheating. There was one thread I read where the engine failed because of this. 
 

Thanks for the info on the carb parts. If I rebuild it I’ll try to find an OEM rebuild kit. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

29 minutes ago, JerryLook said:

I read that the Onan twins are sensitive to crud buildup on the cooling fins and it causes overheating. There was one thread I read where the engine failed because of this. 

Excess heat is bad for any engine.

The Onan twins' oil filter is in the cooling airflow for the rear cylinder.  Failing to clean up drips properly during a filter change (there is a built-in tray to catch drips) can lead to oil getting on the rear fins and attracting crud.

[JerryLook 73]

Yeah I noticed there was a weird little area under and around the oil filter. I tried to clean it out the best I could when I had the filter off, but it’s hard to access with the filter installed. And with the filter off I don’t really want to use compressed air and risk blowing something in the oil filter opening. 
 

I was looking at the rear tires and I think they’re original. Looks like the date code says 90 for 1990. That would have been the first year the 416-H was produced I think. 
The tires are Dico brand. Right now they’re 23x9.5-12. I was thinking about getting 23x10.5-12 

[JerryLook 73]

One more question. How do I get the shifter plate off? I take out the 4 screws, and it seems like something holds it down. I can lift it about an inch. 
I can move the “motion lever” around enough that I think I can clear it. The parking brake lever shouldn’t be an issue I don’t think. And the deck height lever might need to be taken off. 
 

I want to get in there so I can lube and adjust the motion lever, and hopefully get rid of the hydro creep. I was doing some work with it today, and when I stop I have to find just the right spot for the lever so it doesn’t creep forward or backwards 

[Handy Don 12,235]

6 hours ago, JerryLook said:

One more question. How do I get the shifter plate off? I take out the 4 screws, and it seems like something holds it down. I can lift it about an inch. 
I can move the “motion lever” around enough that I think I can clear it. The parking brake lever shouldn’t be an issue I don’t think. And the deck height lever might need to be taken off. 
 

I want to get in there so I can lube and adjust the motion lever, and hopefully get rid of the hydro creep. I was doing some work with it today, and when I stop I have to find just the right spot for the lever so it doesn’t creep forward or backwards 

Firstly it is usually wedged under the panel with the gauges, so loosening that will help.

Second, it can be wedged under the support bracket under the front of the fender.

Lastly, there are are two safety switches screwed to the plate--one for the parking brake (to detect it is off) and one for the motion control (to detect neutral). You can see the four small phillips head screws holding them. You have to get enough slack in the wires to reach in and disconnect them. Unscrewing the screws probably won't work since they have nuts on the other side (and if it does, you'll lose the nuts and be quite upset).

[JerryLook 73]

I got it up enough to see the wires, but I’ll have to pull it a little more to have room to disconnect them. Maybe I can fix the parking brake while I’m in there. 
 

I also found another post where it shows how everything is supposed to look when it’s adjusted properly. And they described the adjustment procedure. 
 

I think I saw a manuals section in this site. Hopefully they have a manual for my mower. I need to check it out. 

[JerryLook 73]

I got the panel off and took care of the parking brake switch while I was under there. I also lubed all the trans linkages. It goes into gear much easier now. 
 

A question about adding oil to the trans. I read the manual and it says to add oil if the level is low on the dipstick. So I would assume I can add it down the dipstick tube. 
When I do this the oil drains down very slow. And kind of bubbles every 20 seconds or so. I made a mess when I tried to add oil. So is there a breather or something I need to open? Should I be adding oil with the engine off or on? I’ve been doing it with the engine off. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

10 hours ago, JerryLook said:

I got the panel off and took care of the parking brake switch while I was under there. I also lubed all the trans linkages. It goes into gear much easier now. 
 

A question about adding oil to the trans. I read the manual and it says to add oil if the level is low on the dipstick. So I would assume I can add it down the dipstick tube. 
When I do this the oil drains down very slow. And kind of bubbles every 20 seconds or so. I made a mess when I tried to add oil. So is there a breather or something I need to open? Should I be adding oil with the engine off or on? I’ve been doing it with the engine off. 

Terrific.

Yes, adding oil to the Eaton 1100 is a known slooooow. There is no other vent. Some folks loosen one of the two bolts that hold the seat bracket to the transaxle--these go through and would let air out while you are adding oil. The not insignificant risk is that debris could enter the transaxle through that hole that could be bad for the hydro unit (I choose not to use this method).

 

I use a VERY small funnel (maybe ¼" or less opening so the oil flows very slowly) and I put a long straw down the tube so that it extends from just below the inside top of the transaxle casing (measure it!) to several inches above the top of the funnel and tape it to the outside of the funnel (this is my air vent). Then I fill the funnel and go do something else for ten minutes while oil dribbles in and then I recheck the level. Repeat until dipstick is happy!

Edited June 8, 2022 by Handy Don

[JerryLook 73]

@Handy Don

Thanks. It’s good to know it’s not just me, or an issue with the transmission. Now I think I understand why the one side of the diff is so oily and dirty though. When I filled it I had a bit of oil spill down the side of the dipstick tube and onto the same spot on the diff. I imagine the previous owner did the same thing and didn’t clean up the mess he made. 
 

I was just bringing the oil back into the usable range, but I’m planning a oil change soon. I’m waiting for the hyd filter to get here from Amazon. Maybe today. I bet that will be fun putting the 2 quarts or whatever it holds in. It’s gonna take all day. Haha 

[lynnmor 7,307]

2 hours ago, JerryLook said:

 

Thanks. It’s good to know it’s not just me, or an issue with the transmission. Now I think I understand why the one side of the diff is so oily and dirty though. When I filled it I had a bit of oil spill down the side of the dipstick tube and onto the same spot on the diff. I imagine the previous owner did the same thing and didn’t clean up the mess he made. 
 

I was just bringing the oil back into the usable range, but I’m planning a oil change soon. I’m waiting for the hyd filter to get here from Amazon. Maybe today. I bet that will be fun putting the 2 quarts or whatever it holds in. It’s gonna take all day. Haha 

 

Drain the oil warm and immediately after shutting down to get the maximum amount of debris out.  Also raise the front of the tractor to get even more out.  You will need roughly 4.5 quarts to fill the transmission, the good news is most of it will go in easily.

 

The oil in the dipstick area may have come form the burping that is common with wide temperature swings, some mark their territory and some do not and it is not well understood by anyone.

[JerryLook 73]

Maybe I was thinking 2 quarts because my C-105 takes that much? Don’t know how I got that number in my head. Anyways, I'm doing the oil change right now. I have plenty of oil, so whatever it takes is fine. 
 

My mower is 32 years old and only has 493 hours on it right now. Looking at the filter it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s original. 

[953 nut 55,297]

I put a piece of wire between the dipstick tube and funnel to create a gap which acts as a vent when adding oil. 

[JerryLook 73]

I got about 3 quarts in and had to stop. The level won’t go down in the dipstick tube. I left it overnight to see how it looks today. 
I’m thinking I might have to fire it up to draw some of the oil into the system. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

14 hours ago, JerryLook said:

I got about 3 quarts in and had to stop. The level won’t go down in the dipstick tube. I left it overnight to see how it looks today. 
I’m thinking I might have to fire it up to draw some of the oil into the system. 

The spec total includes the oil in the filter, hydro pump/motor, lift cylinder, control valve, and all the hoses/piping. Unless you emptied all of that (never done except in full tear-down situations), you'll be "short". Trust the dipstick after it runs for a minute, you've moved it back and forth, and the lift has been exercised a few times. 

[JerryLook 73]

Usually I’m pretty careful not to overfill. Just didn’t expect it would only take as much as it did. I’ll run it and recheck. 
 

Typically on a car engine if it calls out for 5 qts, I’ll put 4.5 in and run it, then check the dipstick. But I also don’t prefill the oil filter.

[JerryLook 73]

Also you probably know the answer to this @Handy Don , how often do you lube the PTO pulley bearing? I noticed on my C-105 when I pulled the engine there are roller bearings in the PTO pulley. On that engine it looks like they were oiled. I’m wondering if they should get grease or oil, and how often. 
I didn’t see it mentioned in the operating manual for the tractor. 
 

I’m wondering specially for the 416H. The C-105 won’t have the PTO after the engine swap. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by JerryLook

[Handy Don 12,235]

2 hours ago, JerryLook said:

Also you probably know the answer to this @Handy Don , how often do you lube the PTO pulley bearing? I noticed on my C-105 when I pulled the engine there are roller bearings in the PTO pulley. On that engine it looks like they were oiled. I’m wondering if they should get grease or oil, and how often. 
I didn’t see it mentioned in the operating manual for the tractor. 

For the needle/rollers in the PTO Bell, the conventional thinking is to wipe them clean, check for pits and damage, and then using a high-temp, anti-sling (like Lucas Red n' Tacky or Green) apply a very light film coating. Excess grease here can migrate onto your PTO clutch plate and contaminate it.

I do it when I change the belt or every year of so. A good quality grease will last quite a while and the task is pretty easy to do. It's not really an "average homeowner" maintenance item so I think they expected dealers to do it when the saw the tractor every couple of years.

[JerryLook 73]

Ok thanks. I happen to have some red and tacky in the grease gun right now. I switch between that and the Lucas blue marine grease. 
 

So did they make a service manual for these tractors also? Like what the dealer would use to service the tractor. 
 

I know in the manual section they have two manuals for the 416H. One is the owners manual and the other is the maintenance manual. It has a lot of good info, but doesn’t include greasing those bearings. So I’m wondering what else is left out. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by JerryLook

[Handy Don 12,235]

5 minutes ago, JerryLook said:

So did they make a service manual for these tractors also? Like what the dealer would use to service the tractor. 

I'm sure they did, but the Files here don't have all the manuals--only what members have been able to acquire and share.

It's a great idea to learn the "search" function on the forum so you can find manuals of interest. Key search terms are the year, model, and some acronyms for owners manual, illustrated parts list, and service manual (e.g. 1995, 416-8, OM, IPM, SM). Search in the Files or Documents sections. Use the "use all my search terms" option!

 

I'll plug joining as a supporter, as well. Regular members can search but at a slower rate than Supporters.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Handy Don

[Jrblanke 857]

I've enjoyed ghis thread. I live reading about folks who have recently discovered these awesome little tractors. Welcome @JerryLook! And come to the big show in a couple weeks. Its a blast!

[JerryLook 73]

I’ll be honest, before owning a WH I never understood how someone could call these a tractor. I thought they were basically just a lawnmower that could do a few extra things, but not very well. 
Well now after owning one, and reading about all the things they can do, I see these really are a little tractor. And a well built little tractor too. 
 

Ive read about some other lawn tractors that have attachments available, but it seems like no one really does it as well as WH. 
 

To update my last post about changing the hyd oil. I ended up putting 4 quarts in it. That brings me to 2/3 of the way up the operating range on the dipstick. 
 

The deck lift took a few times running the mower before it would operate right away. Now it comes up immediately just like it did before the oil change. 
 

Also I just put some new mower blades on it. While I had the deck off I greased all the fittings. I took the pulley covers off and cleaned the gunk out from under there. I put 3 new Oregon blades on it. Part number 91-806. It’s supposed to replace Toro part number 106637. 
 

While I had the belt off I took the PTO pulley off and greased the roller bearings. They were dry but not too worn. 
 

I also have a rectifier on order for it. Hopefully that fixes my charging problem. 
 

My only issue left to tackle is the engine surges when the throttle is below half. I’ve read that I either need to clean the carb or replace the intake gaskets. Or maybe both. That’s on my list to do. 
 

I’ll include a pic of how dirty the deck was under the covers. It most likely hasn’t been cleaned in many years. 
The deck is in decent shape. It does have a small hole over by the right side, but nothing too bad. I’d say it will be serviceable for some years to come. I also have a 42” deck from the C-105 I could put on if I need to. It’s in decent shape. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

1 hour ago, JerryLook said:

small hole over by the right side

Small holes grow and multiply. Consider doing a repair in the offseason to get ahead of that one and any others. Good decks are becoming scare and command high prices. Making yours last is a worthwhile investment of time.