Suburban Trans

[tgranthamfd 29]

Was wondering if there was any cause for alarm, I haven't torn apart the trans. and wasn't going to unless it didn't runout good. Got the fill plug out and it had what looked like grease covering the hole under the plug. Pulled out the plug on the lower side plate, and no fluid came out. According to everything I've read, and been told to look for, the trany appears to be solid up to this point. It had just been sitting for, at least, the last 3 years but it rolled over with no lock up's in gear and in neutral. I can turn the drive pully, on the side, and the rear wheels will start to move forward and / or backwards with the weight of the tractor on it, lifted it up and rolled 1 wheel and the other goes the oppisit direction etc, etc, etc..... Do you guys think I should go through it ( knowing absolutly nothing about it ) or just consintrate on the restore and worrie about it if it doesn't run out well?? All I had laying around was some trany fluid, so I put it in to see what it looks like when drained and to give it a little lubrication. P.S. what type of lube really goes in this trany? Thanks in advance for your input and advise.

[buckrancher 2,694]

I believe you should be using a gear oil like SAE 75W-90

there must be aleak some where as the transmission should

have had oil in it

check for a leaking side plate gasket or a crack in the center case

you may also need to replace the axle bushings and seals

If you can raise the tractor off the ground so you can spin the tire's

put some light weight oil or kerosene in the transmission

(fill until it comes out the side check oil hole 1/8 npt pipe plug)

turn it by hand for awhile and watch for leaks

You may still need to rebuild this as there are bushings and bearings inside

that may be wore from lack of lubricant if the tractor was used much

with out oil

good luck

[buckrancher 2,694]

I reread your post and noticed you said pulled the plug on the lower side plate that should be the oil level check hole the drain plug should be on the bottom

could be a allen wrench type plug

you may not have a problem could be you pulled the wrong plug

[ol550 830]

Terry, For what it's worth I would go ahead and tear in to it. Every one of these I've been in had grit in them that chews away at the differential carrier bushings and supports. Usually the bushings are trash, but can be found. The side gaskets and seals are also readily avaliable. I have been using 80W90 in mine but just about any gear lube safe for yellow metals is fine. Good luck. Mike

[tgranthamfd 29]

Fill hole and drain hole and another to check the level. I was kinda wondering about that. I didn't notice one on the very bottom, but I didn't look very closely. I will check it out more better this afternoon. :thumbs2:

[tgranthamfd 29]

Ok, been all over the bottom of this trans, there is no drain plug in the bottom. Could one of the lower bolts on the side plate serve as a drain? It is the trans with the single center section and the two side plates, 1 plug on the top and one small plug on the right side, just under the axel housing.

[evanloock 221]

There is NO drain plug on the bottom of the 3-piece tranny. You can remove one of the lower side cover bolts. If I were you I would open up the tranny just to insure everything is ok in there. Gaskets are still available from Toro and appear on eBay from time to time.

[MikesRJ 552]

There is NO drain plug on the bottom of the 3-piece tranny.

[tgranthamfd 29]

Thanks for the link to the trans manuel, and the information. I am totally transmission illiterate so is there a difference inbetween the 5003 and the 5010, and how do I tell the differencs, if they are seperate models? :thumbs:

[linen beige 14]

This transmission does not have a drain hole. The side plates can be loosened and the gasket seal broken to provide drainage for ALMOST all the lube that is in it, but since there is a flange of about 1/4 inch along the bottom of the casting and the lowest portion of the side plate mounting bolt holes is still about 1/16 inch up from the bottom not all the fluid will drain this way. There will still be about 1/16 inch of crud in the bottom of the case. Pulling at least one side plate completely off and mopping all the old lube out with towels is really the ONLY way to fully clean out the case.

As has been said, this is a 50 year old tranny that had no (or very little) lube in it when you checked. It may have never been checked and topped off since new. Unless it was parked years ago with very few hours of light duty work the bronze axle bushings are most likely worn out and some of the internal bearings may also be worn. The bearings may also be rust coated which, if used now, will probably damage some of your gear faces.

It may seem like overkill to open it up right now, but the peace of mind a good clean out and inspection will give you will be worth tenfold the evening's work to do it.

Oh! the Wheel Horse lube chart recommends SAE 90-140 A.P.I. Service GL-5 gear lubricant. It should hold 1 1/2 Qts (3 pints).

[linen beige 14]

Thanks for the link to the trans manuel, and the information. I am totally transmission illiterate so is there a difference inbetween the 5003 and the 5010, and how do I tell the differencs, if they are seperate models?

The 5003 was used on the RJ-58 and RJ-59. On the left hand side cover the brake band mounting tab is welded on straight up and down.

The 5010 was used on the ST400, ST550, and 401. The brake band mounting tab is

welded on at a fourty five degree angle to the ground. The 5010 also had large holes in the upper rear corners of the side plates for mounting the AH-60 hitch.

There may be some other minor differences but those are the quick and easy identifiers.

[tgranthamfd 29]

Ok, tore the 5010 apart. Plenty of oil and very little signs of water, but some wear on the diff gear and, I guess, the brake shaft gear. Is there a replacement # for these?? No longer avalible. Still not sure about all the ball bearing and needle bearing business, either. It is a 5010 according to all I have read on here, but it looked like ball bearing bearings in the side covers. Can I still find those? No good on all the bronze bushings either. I'm thinking new keys, bushings, bearings, seals, and gaskets and I will be ok. I am not finding the numbers I looked up, from Toro's sight, on the cross reference chart put together on the other thread. Where can I get the parts / numbers that I need? :thumbs2:

[MikesRJ 552]

Ok, tore the 5010 apart. Plenty of oil and very little signs of water, but some wear on the diff gear and, I guess, the brake shaft gear. Is there a replacement # for these??

[tgranthamfd 29]

Luckily I had the camera.

Also wondering if this bottom gear is designed like this??

Mcguire, I was hopeing you would chime in, I knew you just finished your 5003. To everyone thanks for your help and input. :thumbs2:

[MikesRJ 552]

Picture 4

That Input Gear is good, that's the way the gear is cut.

Pictures 1, 2, 3, and 5

The "Brake Shaft and Gear" does not look too bad, but it's hard to get a feel for the depth of the wear grooves from the pictures. That said, they do not appear to be in bad shape and I would just Dremmel them slightly on the faces to level and clean up any burrs, and flatten the tops of the teeth (again, very lightly just to remove burrs). You're probably not going to be "working" this machine anyway, other than the occasional jaunt around the yard or at a show, so it really matters little that there might be a small amount of gear lash. As long as the oil is fresh and it's not rusting in there, it'll last another 50 years.

Your oil actually looks good too. I expected it to be a bit more light brownish and muddy (water emulsion), or dark and nasty black (just plain old and thick). By the way, doesn't 50 y/o gear oil smell wonderful?

My Opinion is below:

WARNING: If you choose to rebuild, have all the replacement parts in hand BEFORE you start, unlike someone else I know (ME! ).

- RTFI : 5003-5010 Transmission Rebuild Manual

- Do a complete disassembly and clean the entire mess of all old gunk. If you have access to a parts washer, I suggest you use that. NOTES: Several of the R12 Ball Bearings in the side covers are a B#%$h to get out. If the tranny shifts OK now, you don't have to take the shift forks apart. But, if the springy-ness when shifting into each of the 4 gears does not feel the same, then I would take them apart and replace the ball bearings and springs (it could be a bad Shift Rail-but its not likely). Look closely at the two shift forks where they engage the HI-Second and LOW-Reverse gears. There should be little side-side play (no more than 0.020-0.030") and no visible gouge wear on the forks. There are only a couple of Shift Rails, a few springs, a few bearings, and some roll pins; but getting them back together is a real PITA. If you don't have to dismantle them, don't. If there is no play (up-down slop) in the Reverse Idler Gear, don't bother removing it either. It's only a gear with bronze bushings in it, riding on a shaft.

- Clean the burrs off the Brake Shaft and Gear with a Dremmel Tool and small sanding drum, clean in the parts washer again. Same for the teeth on the "Differential Gear and Case" if they need it. Only take enough material off to clean off burrs.

- Replace all bronze bushings, Ball and Roller Bearings, and Seals as described in the instructions. Hone the bronze bushings (using a brake hone and drill) to 0.001-0.002" over-sized (i.e. if you are installing for a 1" shaft, the honed hole should be no greater than 1.002" or 0.002 bigger than the shaft going into it. Basically this step insures correct size and clearance, as well as parallel side walls and de-burred bearing ends). Clean up all shafts and shaft ends with Emory cloth so the ends that go into or through bearings slip-fit in their locations (do this before starting reassembly, otherwise you'll have a hard time getting the sides back together and may have to disassemble everything to fix it).

- Reassemble and lubricate with 90W Gear Oil (TSC 85-140 Gear Oil will do just fine).

If I can help with anything else, just ask.

[tgranthamfd 29]

Sounds like a plan, if I have any more issues or questions, I will definantly look you up. Thanks a million. :thumbs2:

[MikesRJ 552]

tgranthamfd,

Would you mind if I use your pictures in my writeup. I didn't get any during my restore (up to my elbows in nasty 50 y/o smelly-a**ed gear oil at the time) and those would be great for the transmission rebuild section I planned to add to the writeup. Any more that you have, or can take while doing yours, would be helpful as well.

[Coadster32 793]

In regards to the shifting, check the shift forks for wear. I've seen a few trannys now where the shift fork wears really thin where it captures hi gear. The gear should fit nicely with very little side play, or slop. you can physically see the fork thinness if you're looking for it. Your tranny doesn't look bad at all. You're going in the right direction. BTW-the input gear looks like that to accept third gear.

[tgranthamfd 29]

Mike, you can use any of the pics you need, I may have a couple more, at this point.

Chris, If the shift fork wear is really noticable, then I think it will be ok. I have a pic of that too. The gears came out easily, but will sit in there by thereself. They looked to be the same width, as well. I'll put the pic up, and you guys can let me know if you see any problems.

spider gears

axle wear

Another view for ya Mike.

[buckrancher 2,694]

Silly me thinking there was a drain plug on the bottom of a rj 3 piece

transmission

while you have it apart put one in like the factory should have

use a 7/16" drill and a 1/4" npt tap only tap about half way on the tap cutting

teeth then check your hole thread depth with a pipe plug you want the plug

to go thru the case and stick up about .02 to .03 inside the case

as the tap & plug are both tapered the deeper you go with the tap the deeper the

plug goes too

:thumbs2:

[MikesRJ 552]

Terry,

From the pictures you posted already, I don't see anything "bad" or that you should be over concerned with, other than what has already been discussed. You need to clean up the axle shafts a little, with Emory cloth, but other than that all steel parts look good or serviceable. Follow the direction I stated previously and you should be fine.

Brian,

The plug is a good idea if you were going to work the machine, but the gear oil will last 20 years at show and screwing-around the back yard usage. I thought about it, but it wouldn't fit the intent for my restoration, YMMV. Plus I don't think I'd like to get that plug hung-up on something and come off while I wasn't looking behind me. I can see it now, the thing comes to grinding halt, and as I look around I see this pretty oil stripe all over the yard ..... :thumbs2:

[buckrancher 2,694]

Brian,

The plug is a good idea if you were going to work the machine, but the gear oil will last 20 years at show and screwing-around the back yard usage. I thought about it, but it wouldn't fit the intent for my restoration, YMMV. Plus I don't think I'd like to get that plug hung-up on something and come off while I wasn't looking behind me. I can see it now, the thing comes to grinding halt, and as I look around I see this pretty oil stripe all over the yard .....

that's the same drain plug used in wh transmissons from 1961-2007

if you catch that on something and rip it off you'll have alot bigger problem

than just leaking oil :thumbs:

[MikesRJ 552]

that's the same drain plug used in wh transmissons from 1961-2007

if you catch that on something and rip it off you'll have alot bigger problem

than just leaking oil

Yup, your exactly correct!

[tgranthamfd 29]

Mike I zipped the pictures to you, on the secod e-mail. buckrancher, I sure am glad you cleared that up for me, I thought I was loosing my eyesight. That is a pretty cool idea. Thanks guys. Mike please do send the link that you talked about.

[Coadster32 793]

Everything looks really good to me also. I'd emery the shaft also. Those seals usually have interferense with the shaft up to .04 inch depending on the seal. Even if it's .005 undersized, it should still seal. Just watch the fit on the bearing. Total runout shouldn't exceed .005. If it does, you new seals may fail down the road.