Questions About HH100 Engine On Raider 9

[tntatro 171]

Hello, I recently bought a Raider 9 Wheel Horse and I'm not familiar with the Tecumseh HH100 engine. I tried to test for spark by turning the flywheel over with a drill and also tried by hooking a battery to the starter. It showed no signs of spark. One question I have is whether it should spark on its own without a battery connection if the ignition is good? I've read not to connect the battery to the coil or it will fry it. It appears to be dead already unless I tested it wrong. There are two wires coming out that I believe are from the stator and one wire coming from behind the bearing plate that connects to the ignition. The flywheel has two pins. I was told by the previous owner that it ran, then the starter failed and then they rebuilt the starter and never re installed it. That was around twenty years ago and it sat in a barn since then.

 

Another question I have, since the ignition might be bad and so far I don't know the internal condition of the engine, are these engines comparable to Kohler K series engines as far as parts availability and cost and is there a good repair manual available with all the specifications and instructions like the Kohler manuals? Basically, is it worth the effort? I have a rebuilt K301 that I can swap out but I hate to give up on an engine that might have potential. This is a tractor that I want to "save" then sell or trade, so I don't want to throw a lot of money in it because it's rough looking and probably won't sell for much. I paid $125 for it and want to at least make my money back after, if possible.

 

Thanks, Tim

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

Look through this list of files

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?q=1-6931&quick=1&type=downloads_file

[ebinmaine 67,590]

I'm all for saving old iron whenever there is a possibility and I've been known to spend too much time and money doing just that.

 

The Tecumseh engines of that era are a good base to start with as long as you have a clean good running carburetor... And the ignition system is throwing good spark.

Trina's Military Tribute Tractor "Millie" has an HH100 on it right now that does run good. Easy to start. Plenty of power for her application. It will be swapped out at some point in the future because the charging system isn't working.   

 

@pfrederi has similar machines to yours and puts them right to the task.

 

It seems to me the main issue that you're up against right now is the fact that you don't intend to keep the tractor so you have to be a little more careful than usual about how much time and money you put into it to make it a running working machine.

 

One important point of consideration for you is that some of those tractors were built with six speeds and if that's the case that's a limited slip transmission. In and of itself that transmission is worth well over what you paid for the entire tractor.

 

If, after proper diagnosis, that engine fails to produce spark and you don't want to put the time or money into it to get it running... The tractor itself would certainly be worthy of an engine transplant and be a great worker to a person who knows what they have. It would also be a good piece to part out so other tractors can live on.

[pfrederi 17,741]

 

[tntatro 171]

4 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Look through this list of files

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?q=1-6931&quick=1&type=downloads_file

Thanks, I found a service manual in the files that looks like it has a lot of information. I'll check it out when I have time.

[tntatro 171]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

Thanks, I just took a quick look through it and downloaded.

[tntatro 171]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I'm all for saving old iron whenever there is a possibility and I've been known to spend too much time and money doing just that.

 

The Tecumseh engines of that era are a good base to start with as long as you have a clean good running carburetor... And the ignition system is throwing good spark.

Trina's Military Tribute Tractor "Millie" has an HH100 on it right now that does run good. Easy to start. Plenty of power for her application. It will be swapped out at some point in the future because the charging system isn't working.   

 

@pfrederi has similar machines to yours and puts them right to the task.

 

It seems to me the main issue that you're up against right now is the fact that you don't intend to keep the tractor so you have to be a little more careful than usual about how much time and money you put into it to make it a running working machine.

 

One important point of consideration for you is that some of those tractors were built with six speeds and if that's the case that's a limited slip transmission. In and of itself that transmission is worth well over what you paid for the entire tractor.

 

If, after proper diagnosis, that engine fails to produce spark and you don't want to put the time or money into it to get it running... The tractor itself would certainly be worthy of an engine transplant and be a great worker to a person who knows what they have. It would also be a good piece to part out so other tractors can live on.

This is my fifth Wheel Horse so far to get back to working order. It's hard to get rid of them between not wanting to part with them and the fact that they don't sell for much for what they are. I also picked up a B80 8 speed at the same time I got the Raider 9. Both tractors for $250. The Raider 9 does have the 6 speed still in it. 

 

Unfortunately I don't know if the carburetor is good or anything else. I guess I have to decide to either swap it out or commit to getting it back running. I did see an ignition replacement/mod on YouTube but that would cost time and money just to get spark and see if it will run.

[ebinmaine 67,590]

1 minute ago, tntatro said:

ignition replacement/mod

May have been @Ed Stoller ?

 

Good guy.  

[tntatro 171]

31 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

May have been @Ed Stoller ?

 

Good guy.  

I don't remember the name, I watched a couple different videos and they both used the same method that involved a brake sensor and some type of module.

 

You mentioned that the charging system wasn't working in a tractor with the HH100 engine. Is the charging system hard to find replacement parts for?

Edited May 11, 2022 by tntatro

[ebinmaine 67,590]

1 hour ago, tntatro said:

I don't remember the name, I watched a couple different videos and they both used the same method that involved a brake sensor and some type of module.

 

You mentioned that the charging system wasn't working in a tractor with the HH100 engine. Is the charging system hard to find replacement parts for?

Yeah that sounds like Ed. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the Meet And Greet in Connecticut last fall. Awesome guy.

 

This particular engine was on a tractor that wasn't charging when I got it and in fact one of the two output wires was cut off for some reason. I reattached the wires in hopes that it would work, to no avail.

 

I haven't tried to hunt down what exactly is wrong or what parts may be needed because this engine was going to be a temporary replacement anyway. The tractor was originally built with an 8 HP Kohler Engine with starter generator and that's what we're going to be putting back.  

 

It's certainly possible that someone like Lincoln at A to Z or maybe a seller on Flea Bay might have the parts available. There were plenty of them made on lots of different machines.

[tntatro 171]

I just discovered a pin is missing in the flywheel. I decided to try and clean the pins and ignition and it looks like the pin has been missing for a while. Would that prevent it from having spark and can it be replaced?

[ebinmaine 67,590]

It's been awhile since I've seen how this system works. 

If I recall correctly, one pin is for starting spark and the other is for running spark. 

So yes. 

If it's the slow speed pin it could prevent starting. 

 

I believe one of Ed's videos shows how they work and likely it could be replaced, yes.  

 

Have you (or can you) tested the coil yet?

 

[tntatro 171]

19 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

It's been awhile since I've seen how this system works. 

If I recall correctly, one pin is for starting spark and the other is for running spark. 

So yes. 

If it's the slow speed pin it could prevent starting. 

 

I believe one of Ed's videos shows how they work and likely it could be replaced, yes.  

 

Have you (or can you) tested the coil yet?

 

I haven't tested the coil, I don't know how.

[tntatro 171]

4 minutes ago, tntatro said:

I haven't tested the coil, I don't know how.

Unless you mean when it was installed. I tried turning the flywheel over with a drill and also hooked a battery to the starter and turned the flywheel that way. 

[ebinmaine 67,590]

1 minute ago, tntatro said:

Unless you mean when it was installed. I tried turning the flywheel over with a drill and also hooked a battery to the starter and turned the flywheel that way. 

Not sure either way would turn the flywheel fast enough to create a spark. 

 

Perhaps the manual has a method?

 

[tntatro 171]

26 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Not sure either way would turn the flywheel fast enough to create a spark. 

 

Perhaps the manual has a method?

 

I would think the starter turning it over should do it if it were good. That's how it starts normally. 

 

I just watched a video on testing the coil with a multimeter. I set it to the beep mode for continuity and it passed that test. I touched one lead to the terminal and the other to the block and it didn't show a connection. According to the video that shows that it might be good. I think I'll try to replace the pin since that isn't a big expense. Later I'll try adjusting the gap with the coil and existing pin to see if that does anything. I'll check out what the service manual says also.

[tntatro 171]

I am reading the manual now and I guess I was a little confused about the coil vs the ignition. The ignition passed the test, now I'll check the generator coil.

[tntatro 171]

According to the manual, if the coil is below 400 ohms then it should be replaced. I think the reading I got translates to 486 ohms. The strange thing is that the manual says if it's over 400 ohms then replace the ignition. I'm assuming it is referring to a troubleshooting situation. It appears that the pin that is missing is the longer one so I cannot adjust the gap accurately. In my case I think replacing the pin is the next step so I ordered a set off ebay. Hopefully the correct set, it is for an HH100 flywheel so I ordered them. $14 won't be a huge loss if it's not the problem.

[Handy Don 12,235]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

It's been awhile since I've seen how this system works. 

If I recall correctly, one pin is for starting spark and the other is for running spark. 

So yes. 

If it's the slow speed pin it could prevent starting. 

 

I believe one of Ed's videos shows how they work and likely it could be replaced, yes.  

 

Have you (or can you) tested the coil yet?

 

Yep, you would have to spin the engine very fast to get it to run with only the pin you have.

 

The engine rotates clockwise (looking from flywheel side)

The right side pin in your image is the "fast" pin--important for efficient running since it fires the spark before TDC

The missing pin in your image is the "slow" pin--important for starting since it fires the spark at TDC

 

The slow pin sticks out of the flywheel farther than the fast pin so it can trigger the spark sensor even at slow speed.

 

[tntatro 171]

17 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Yep, you would have to spin the engine very fast to get it to run with only the pin you have.

 

The engine rotates clockwise (looking from flywheel side)

The right side pin in your image is the "fast" pin--important for efficient running since it fires the spark before TDC

The missing pin in your image is the "slow" pin--important for starting since it fires the spark at TDC

 

The slow pin sticks out of the flywheel farther than the fast pin so it can trigger the spark sensor even at slow speed.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't comprehend about the fast and slow pin. I ordered replacement trigger pins so with a little luck maybe I'll get some spark out of it eventually. The coil seemed to test okay and the ignition is at least not showing continuity when I put the lead on the terminal and the other lead on the block. I was told it ran before the starter went out... twenty years ago, but that's what they all say.

[Handy Don 12,235]

11 hours ago, tntatro said:

twenty years ago, but that's what they all say

They ALL ran at some point in the past, right? 

[tntatro 171]

20 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

They ALL ran at some point in the past, right? 

Yup, it ran at some point before the starter went out. At least he didn't say "Just needs the carburetor cleaned."

 

I got a B80 along with this one and it actually started right up when I got a battery and good coil but the valves were too worn, the head gasket leaked and it spits gas out the carburetor.

[ebinmaine 67,590]

10 minutes ago, tntatro said:

valves were too worn, the head gasket leaked and it spits gas out the carburetor

Not sure about the valves but the head gasket and carburetor are fairly easy to fix

Edited May 12, 2022 by ebinmaine

[tntatro 171]

12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Not sure about the valves but the head gasket and carburetor are fairly easy to fix

I already replaced the valves, cut the seats and adjusted the valve/tappet clearance. The old ones were .004" to .005" too tight on the clearance. I don't know if that can cause the head to leak or gas to spit out the carb but I cleaned the carburetor and someone had already rebuilt it at some point. I couldn't see any signs of the needle valve sticking open. Then I decided  to check the valves and they definately needed work. I flattened the head and ordered a new gasket. Also, it didn't have a fuel filter so maybe the needle valve kept getting plugged even after I cleaned it although the tank was really clean looking.

[ebinmaine 67,590]

1 minute ago, tntatro said:

Also, it didn't have a fuel filter so maybe the needle valve kept getting plugged even after I cleaned it although the tank was really clean looking

Absolutely a possibility.

Because of the ethanol in gasoline now I've seen serious degradation of the old rubber hoses and that black muck along with some ethanol muck will get into the small port at the end of the tank which you can't see, and also infest the fuel pump which should be dissected and cleaned out.