1989 416-8 Brake & clutch questions

[davem1111 2,037]

I've posted some other questions about this tractor, but this is the first time with anything related to the trans/clutch/brake.

 

So, I was hauling some hay to my horses in a very muddy field (yeah, probably buying some Ag's and chains soon... ).  A few times I had to get off and push with it running and in gear (not too smart, but.... oh well).    When it finally got some traction and I hopped on, one time it was heading toward the fence rather quickly and I was reminded that the previous owner told me the brakes either "didn't work well" or "didn't work at all" .... seems more the latter.  Managed to get it stopped before hitting the fence, and took it into the shop.

 

The adjustable arm that pulls on the brake shoe was very loose, so I cleaned it up, lubed and tightened it. My first question is, with the tractor jacked up off both rear wheels, should engaging the brake stop either or both wheels, or does the differential make it so that testing this way just doesn't work?   I've looked at the IPL and SM's for this and it's not clear from what I've read so far.   Also, should engaging the clutch also engage the brake, like it does on the hydro's, or are they totally independent on the manual trans models? It seems like they are independent, unless I'm missing something.   Basically I want to make sure I don't have some internal problem with the trans, like a stripped gear on the brake shaft, or something like that.  

[Handy Don 12,444]

The hydros have the one pedal only to both brake and move the motion control to neutral.

My Lawn Ranger has one pedal for both disengaging the clutch and applying the brake and I know this is true for other models.

The 310-8 has separate brake and clutch pedals and braking does not disengage the clutch.

 

In all cases, if the brake is working properly, it will stop the internal gearing from driving the differential. From there, it depends on traction.

If both rear wheels have traction, stopping the differential stops the tractor (in either direction).

If either of the wheels has no traction at all and the tractor has momentum (muddy/wet downhill?) you are out of luck and in for a ride (one of the reasons for the factory limit of 275 lbs towed). Even a low gear and engine braking do no good in this situation because the wheels are slipping.

 

 

[wallfish 17,078]

Yes the brake is independent from the clutch on a 416-8

yes the differential will still allow the wheels to spin in different directions when the wheels are off the ground with the brake engaged so that is not a good test

Remove the brake band and look for signs of oil, like from the seal leaking. Look at the material for signs of wear. If the material is good but oiled, I soak them in gasoline overnight to break that oil down. If the oil is coming from a worn brake shaft seal that should be fixed because it will just keep oiling the band if not repaired. Clean the drum surface and you can sand it with heavy grit to "roughen up" the surface a little which also helps with friction of the band.

You can change the brake band material if needed or desired as the rubber type material grips better than that older stuff does.

Inspect and adjust all the linkage

[953 nut 55,746]

10 hours ago, davem1111 said:

muddy field (yeah, probably buying some Ag's and chains soon... ).  A few times I had to get off and push with it running and in gear (not too smart, but.... oh well).    When it finally got some traction and I hopped on, one time it was heading toward the fence   A wheel Horse seems to have a tendency to head for an immovable object when there is no driver!     You may want to shift into low range if you find a need to get off the tractor while in operation, not a recomended procedure but at least it will be moving slowly.

I have several rather steep areas on our property and have replaced the factory brake shoe lining with the ones @rmaynard sells, they are a big improvement. As John @wallfish mentioned the tire with the least traction will stop when the brakes are applied because the brakes are applied to the transmission and that is how the open differential distributes the forces.  

[davem1111 2,037]

Instead of starting another thread, since this is "sort of" related and on the same tractor:

 

I found that this 416-8's trans has water in the oil, so I tried to drain it but can NOT get the drain plug out. I've pretty much destroyed 2 Allen wrenches already (by hand only).  I don't have an air impact driver but have been wanting to buy one.  Do you think that's the best approach?  Is it safe to heat these with a torch?  I don't want to start a fire?

 

Or, is the best idea to just remove the trans from the tractor and drain it upside-down? 

[davem1111 2,037]

Hmmmm...   I guess this weekend i'll pull the trans and drain it upside down, and maybe while I have it off I can loosen the drain plug.

[squonk 41,313]

Worse case. buy a suction gun and suck out as much as you can thru the fill hole.

 

[peter lena 8,719]

@davem1111  ,  get  an EZ OUT  drive in  tool , made for that , also use a breaker bar on that , that added leverage advantage , could  do it .  if you get a very solid , bite , just a steady pull / push on that bar will probably break it free, pete

[Handy Don 12,444]

And remember that sometimes turning a tough bolt or nut tighter for a fraction of a turn is the easier way to break it loose. Once it moves inward it's usually easier to get it going outward 

[davem1111 2,037]

Question:   Is the "spirol pin" that holds the High/Low shifter arm on the trans a "push through" spring pin?   At first I thought it was a Hex set screw, but it looks like it goes all the way through. (Very small and dirty, so it's hard to see well).

 

I tapped on it a few times with the closest appropriate sized drift punch I have, but it's not moving.  Thought I should ask the experienced experts here before pounding on it too much and destroying something.  But it doesn't look like the trans can come off with that attached, as opposed to the regular shifter. Thanks!

[peter lena 8,719]

@davem1111  believe its a spirol pin , penetrant  soak it first , most important , try to brace up that shifter , maybe 2x4  wedged in there to prevent bouncing , that would support the same size pin punch , and increase its shock moving effect . good luck , pete

[Handy Don 12,444]

11 hours ago, davem1111 said:

Question:   Is the "spirol pin" that holds the High/Low shifter arm on the trans a "push through" spring pin? 

Yes, it is.

An inexpensive set of roll pin punches is a big help here--they keep the punch aligned on the pin and prevent the pin's end from deforming.

[davem1111 2,037]

I didn't realize that the mounting bolts that connect the trans to the frame went all the way through, so since I was unable to get the drain plug out ahead of time the trans made a big mess when I pulled it off! 

 

Ah well, nothing some Gunk and sawdust can't handle.  

 

Going to flush this trans a couple times then clean it up nice for some fresh paint.   Heck, I'm into it this far, might as well do it all, right?  

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by davem1111

[davem1111 2,037]

23 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Yes, it is.

An inexpensive set of roll pin punches is a big help here--they keep the punch aligned on the pin and prevent the pin's end from deforming.

 

I have a set of these in my Amazon Cart but thought I'd give another try with what I already have.  Found a finishing nail punch that had gotten buggered up, so I ground the end with a bit of a point in the middle. That did the trick.

[davem1111 2,037]

Two questions: 

 

1. Is there some "trick" to removing the hitch pin on the rear of the 8-speed trans?  I read a reference to it somewhere recently but can't find it now.   I don't "have to" remove it, because I'm not splitting the case, but I thought I'd at least loosen it and maybe remove it for some re-painting.  It was frozen up pretty tight and only had one circlip on one end, but I took that off, sprayed it with a lot of PB Blaster and got it to move. Sprayed some more, hammered it back-and-forth a bit. Now, it gets to one end if I try to punch it all the way out and stops.  I'm guessing that the hammering has buggered up both ends to where they won't pass through (pretty obvious on one end before I started).  Would the best approach be to take a grinder to one end to get the diameter back down where it's been hammered out?  Or is this thing typically not worth messing with unless you really have to?

 

2. Somewhat unrelated - I thought as a "Supporter", I could edit the topic of a thread I started, but I can't seem to find a way.  This thread started out a bit different but changed when I found oil in the trans and decided to drain and flush it, but couldn't get the drain plug out and now have pulled it. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by davem1111
left a word out

[Handy Don 12,444]

16 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

removing the hitch pin on the rear of the 8-speed trans

Avoid hammering it and mushrooming the end?  Oh, wait, too late for that. 

The fit is very tight. Any distortion of the end will hang it up.

My most interesting success was to fit a large 3-leg gear puller. Legs on the shoulder of the slot hitch to the right and drive screw centered on a ¼" hole drilled into one end of the pin on the left.

Heat, penetrant, patience (a hammer whack on the drive screw whenever I walked by once I had it under tension), and finally a solid whack on the drive screw and it popped free. From there I was able to drive it out with a punch in the ¼" hole. About 2 hours start to finish but only about 10 minutes of actual work.

They are readily duplicated with simple ¾" rod so some guys have just cut off the ends between the hitch and the casing, applied penetrant, set a punch in a guide hole in the end (5/16 or even ⅜") and then gone at it with a hammer and punch.

 

16 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

can I edit the topic of a thread?

Nope. You can edit the content of any of your posts for up to a month. Ask a moderator (blue handles) via PM if you really think the topic should change.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,037]

9 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Avoid hammering it and mushrooming the end?  Oh, wait, too late for that. 

 

Yep, too late.      I think I'll try to use a grinder.  Like I said, it's moving now, but I haven't tried rotating it to get the back side.  I may be able to grind all the way around without rotating it though. 

[Handy Don 12,444]

15 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

 

Yep, too late.      I think I'll try to use a grinder.  Like I said, it's moving now, but I haven't tried rotating it to get the back side.  I may be able to grind all the way around without rotating it though. 

Unless I had one heavily mushroomed, I'd probably use a file or my Dremel just to avoid any "oops" and messing up the hitch or casing if a big grinder got away from me.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,037]

6 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Unless I had one heavily mushroomed, I'd probably use a file or my Dremel just to avoid any "oops" and messing up the hitch or casing if a big grinder got away from me.

 

Well, you have a good point there.  And maybe the casing is less of a concern than skin - I know I have at least one scar on my hand that is the result of a grinder "slip" 

 

Unfortunately, I must have lent my Dremel to someone whom I can't remember now and who has not seen fit to return it.  Sigh.  I was looking at new ones at HF recently, so maybe it's time.