Towing efficiencies… lack thereof… and improvements…

[Pullstart 63,501]

I wouldn’t say I’m tailgating.  Trucks run in caravans quite often.  I keep my safe distance, but it does make a difference by the feel of it.  I could try 5th.  It seems like the difference between 5th and 6th is quite significant.  Worth investigating though 

[Snoopy11 5,717]

2001 Chevy Silervado...

 

Regarding the truck, Kevin... are there any other details that I am missing?

 

I was thinking of something like this... which REALLY effected the aero on the blue Ranger... DRASTICALLY AND AWESOMELY!

 

 

Don

Edited April 12, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Snoopy11 5,717]

Also, Kevin... have you considered getting a diesel tuner?

 

I was thinking maybe an Edge Evolution CTS3 or PPE...

 

Check out DPP's website

 

Don

[squonk 41,890]

I don't know about the Allison's but back in the day of the 4 spd overdrive transmissions they didn't want you towing in OD. And my 6 spd in my truck has the towing button that I adjusts the shift patterns

[Pullstart 63,501]

12 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

2001 Chevy Silervado...

 

Regarding the truck, Kevin... are there any other details that I am missing?

2500 HD.  I’ve always been amazed at how much more difficult it is to replace the transmission on a 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton.  I just realized the body is higher off the frame.  If you look at the bumpers and grilles you’ll notice the fenders and headlights are much higher on the red one than the blue one.

 

 

[Pullstart 63,501]

1 minute ago, Snoopy11 said:

considered getting a diesel tuner

this truck had an Edge on it when I got it.  It did get better mileage with the same load hauling to the big show through the hills of eastern OH and through PA with a tow performance tune vs no tune on the flat ground to middle WI.  The edge crapped out and since I wan’t the purchaser of it, Edge would only support me with resets so many times.  I feel like a new tuner left on tow performance would be a benefit.

[Pullstart 63,501]

3 minutes ago, squonk said:

I don't know about the Allison's but back in the day of the 4 spd overdrive transmissions they didn't want you towing in OD. And my 6 spd in my truck has the towing button that I adjusts the shift patterns

I don’t know about them either.  This one’s got a ZF6 6 speed gear jammer with a heavy duty South Bend clutch.  

[Snoopy11 5,717]

6 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

I feel like a new tuner left on tow performance would be a benefit

I would get on the horn with Sinister diesel and see if they can hook you up with an AFE Scorcher tuner. With that said, I can't guarantee that you would get better fuel mileage... but you would get a butt-load more power... for sure.

 

EDIT: I say that... because  the AFE tuner is used in sport mode for towing...

 

Then again, if it was me... I would call Outlaw diesel here in Indiana and see if they can hook you up with something... but you probably aren't close enough for that. Those guys are WORLD class diesel bubs.

 

Don

Edited April 12, 2022 by Snoopy11

[squonk 41,890]

9 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

I don’t know about them either.  This one’s got a ZF6 6 speed gear jammer with a heavy duty South Bend clutch.  

Oh that's right. I forgot you got the pole sticking thru the floor. 6th ratio is .72:1 so it is OD. I thinks the engine would like 5th better too. 1.00:1

[squonk 41,890]

Now I'm talking about a crappy diesel here but Renault/Winnebago motor homes used to have a 4cly Turbodiesel and 5 spd. manual trans and they would blow up all the time. The explanation for it from Renault  was because they got lugged in 5th all the time.

[Snoopy11 5,717]

Better hope... running those higher RPM's for long duration... that the H-balancer stays true...

 

EDIT: I guess it also depends on what exact max RPMS we are talking about...

 

Don

Edited April 12, 2022 by Snoopy11

[clueless 3,064]

34 minutes ago, squonk said:

Now I'm talking about a crappy diesel here but Renault/Winnebago motor homes used to have a 4cly Turbodiesel and 5 spd. manual trans and they would blow up all the time. The explanation for it from Renault  was because they got lugged in 5th all the time.

My dad and mom had one of those, ran good for a four cylinder, but when you loaded it up with water, fuel, 4 adults and their gear you better run it in fourth, you could feel it lugging in 5th. He finally sold it after about 6 years price of parts was crazy.

[stevasaurus 22,963]

Kevin, if you are really worried about saving money, don't take the Toll Way.  The axles you are paying for is HUGE !!    Think about going south to Inter 70 / 74...it's free and not as hilly.  

[Tractorhead 9,065]

11 minutes ago, squonk said:

Now I'm talking about a crappy diesel here but Renault/Winnebago motor homes used to have a 4cly Turbodiesel and 5 spd. manual trans and they would blow up all the time. The explanation for it from Renault  was because they got lugged in 5th all the time.

 

I don‘t know if the Renault on your site also uses the Sofim Industrial Motors.

Here they be very Popular, i also had one in my Iveco several years Ago.

They be here used in Iveco Turbo Daily, Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxter, and Renault Traffic.

It was the 2,8L 4cyl. Mostly without (78BHP) but some have a Turbo from 103BHP up to 160BHP.

 

The next Generation of the Vehicles they changed over to the 2,3 Litres downsized Sofim Turbo catastrophy Engines.

This Downsizing Engines be based on Car Engines and was pure Crap.

I never see one of the 2,3L they overtakes 180.000Km without any rework.

The reason was that they have be a maximum allowed 50% of full Load running instead of the light Truck Engines before.

That was also one of the reasons that they died that fast.

So blown head gaskets was one of their mayor failure they Had Turbo problems was the second.

 

The older 2,8Litres light Truck Engines from Sofim that was a real Monster of an Engine from it‘s concept.

Built for 98% of continousely full Load running, no electronic fizzeling, pure mechanic injection, an reliable.

I had mine from 103.000Km and sold it with 345.000Km without any Troubles.

Regular Services was mandatory 

No head gasket change and it’s original Turbo the whole time. One injector must be changed in that Time.

Used by Iveco the 2,8Litres was just released with 130 BHP

but after a little Turbo tweaking (modified wastegate) a bigger Intercooler and modified Injection Pump closer to its limit 

i got 187 BHP( measured on a Dyno) out of that Beast.

 

i drove it nearly allway‘s in 5th Gear ( highest) also while towing, but i rarely tow extreme heavy Weights.

but if needed it pushes my 3,5To heavy Motorhome + 3,5To Horse Hauler twinaxle trailer - both lemme say „a little Overloaded“

on the Steep hill before the modifications with 87 Km/h after that modifications with 128Km/h.

 

- The fun factor increases that dang much, but the milage also drops dramatically down.

before it run with 18,7 litres/100Km after that it runs with 26 litres/100Km.

If you pressed the „Pushbutton“ i believe you can hear the suction out of the Tank and into the injection Pump..

 

but hey Power is a mixture out of Fuel and Air.

You Foot regulates the consumption the Most.

 

 

[Pullstart 63,501]

25 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

Kevin, if you are really worried about saving money, don't take the Toll Way.  The axles you are paying for is HUGE !!    Think about going south to Inter 70 / 74...it's free and not as hilly.  

Is that going down to Columbus then east?

[stevasaurus 22,963]

That's right, unless you do it in Youngstown.  Being safe rather then sorry screwing around with not pulling a load straight...not a tough choice Mate.  Besides, if you go 60mph, are you really worried about time...or getting there.  Messing with the air in your tires in your tuck, and/or your trailer for over 500 miles, or messing with if your trailer is being pulled level...I would not want you in front of me.  

   I passed you going home the 1st year you went to the show (just before the turn off to Detroit).  I remember telling Chris, "I can't believe you were on the Toll Way with that load".   I moved all the way to the left and went by you...did not want to be behind you...3 or 4 lanes at that point.  You just need to think about being safe Kevin and the people on the road with you, stop worrying about a few dollars.  

   Some of the things being talked about here could lift your front end up enough to make steering different.  

[squonk 41,890]

38 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

 

I don‘t know if the Renault on your site also uses the Sofim Industrial Motors.

Here they be very Popular, i also had one in my Iveco several years Ago.

They be here used in Iveco Turbo Daily, Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxter, and Renault Traffic.

It was the 2,8L 4cyl. Mostly without (78BHP) but some have a Turbo from 103BHP up to 160BHP.

 

The next Generation of the Vehicles they changed over to the 2,3 Litres downsized Sofim Turbo catastrophy Engines.

This Downsizing Engines be based on Car Engines and was pure Crap.

I never see one of the 2,3L they overtakes 180.000Km without any rework.

The reason was that they have be a maximum allowed 50% of full Load running instead of the light Truck Engines before.

That was also one of the reasons that they died that fast.

So blown head gaskets was one of their mayor failure they Had Turbo problems was the second.

 

The older 2,8Litres light Truck Engines from Sofim that was a real Monster of an Engine from it‘s concept.

Built for 98% of continousely full Load running, no electronic fizzeling, pure mechanic injection, an reliable.

I had mine from 103.000Km and sold it with 345.000Km without any Troubles.

Regular Services was mandatory 

No head gasket change and it’s original Turbo the whole time. One injector must be changed in that Time.

Used by Iveco the 2,8Litres was just released with 130 BHP

but after a little Turbo tweaking (modified wastegate) a bigger Intercooler and modified Injection Pump closer to its limit 

i got 187 BHP( measured on a Dyno) out of that Beast.

 

i drove it nearly allway‘s in 5th Gear ( highest) also while towing, but i rarely tow extreme heavy Weights.

but if needed it pushes my 3,5To heavy Motorhome + 3,5To Horse Hauler twinaxle trailer - both lemme say „a little Overloaded“

on the Steep hill before the modifications with 87 Km/h after that modifications with 128Km/h.

 

- The fun factor increases that dang much, but the milage also drops dramatically down.

before it run with 18,7 litres/100Km after that it runs with 26 litres/100Km.

If you pressed the „Pushbutton“ i believe you can hear the suction out of the Tank and into the injection Pump..

 

but hey Power is a mixture out of Fuel and Air.

You Foot regulates the consumption the Most.

 

 

Don't remember the displacement but the turbo was like 75 HP and non turbo was like 48. They finally offered a 2.3 gas with automatic.

Edited April 12, 2022 by squonk

[wh500special 2,244]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

Now I'm talking about a crappy diesel here but Renault/Winnebago motor homes used to have a 4cly Turbodiesel and 5 spd. manual trans and they would blow up all the time. The explanation for it from Renault  was because they got lugged in 5th all the time.

 

The LeSharo?

I think Winnebago eventually replaced the Renault front end of those things with a VW Eurovan and rechristened them the Rialta.  In the process they traded exploding engines for exploding transmissions.

 

Neat machines though.  Nothing else like them.

 

Steve

[Snoopy11 5,717]

10 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I would not want you in front of me

Or behind me... or beside me... or...

 

I'd be FLYING--ROARING past you in the fast lane...

 

Don

Edited April 12, 2022 by Snoopy11

[squonk 41,890]

43 minutes ago, wh500special said:

 

The LeSharo?

I think Winnebago eventually replaced the Renault front end of those things with a VW Eurovan and rechristened them the Rialta.  In the process they traded exploding engines for exploding transmissions.

 

Neat machines though.  Nothing else like them.

 

Steve

Yup the LeSharo and Itasca Phasar. The final drives would blow up on them too. You were supposed to change the gear oil every 8000 miles. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by squonk

[squonk 41,890]

Best running LeSharo I ever drove had bad turbo seals. All the oil the turbo was sucking out of the crankcase enhanced the power output!

[Snoopy11 5,717]

1 minute ago, squonk said:

You were supposed to change the gear oil every 8000 miles

Every 8,000 miles??? Oh crop...

 

Don

[squonk 41,890]

They had a recall on them. You had to install an air scoop under it to direct air to the differential. Didn't work and owners kept tearing them off when they got on uneven ground. 

 

[wh500special 2,244]

I think in general if the engine can take it you're better off letting them rev a bit rather than lug.  The obvious logic being that running an engine at lower speeds and expecting it to produce a given amount of torque and power has to result in higher cylinder pressures in the engine.  Which in turn means more stress on the piston, the rod, the crank bearings, etc.  I would think the cyclic stress of that would be worse than gearing down a gear and letting it wind out a bit where the stresses are significantly lower but more frequently applied.

 

By stress, I mean stress in the material science sense of the word.  Not the generic term we apply to mean any number of things depending on the context.

 

Fuel use under significant load - like towing a trailer in the mountains - ought to be about the same regardless if you run in 5th or 6th.  It's more dictated by overall load than on engine speed.  When running under very light loads, this isn't necessarily the case.

 

With a gas engine, letting them rev up improves overall efficiency a bit since the throttle plate opens and provides a less restricted path for the combustion air.  This is actually the primary reason why the modern engines with cylinder deactivation make their gains...when the 8-cylinder drops to 4-cylinder mode the throttle snaps open and improves breathing to the 4 active cylinders.  Air frictional losses are decreased.

 

Anyway, it's going to take a fixed amount of energy to do a given amount of work.  Multiply whatever that theoretical energy number is by about 3 to account for the roughly 33% thermodynamic efficiencies at which a typical engine operates to guess the fuel required to yield that energy.  So if the combined drag load of tugging a trailer down the road is 100 HP (to make up a number) we can make a guess at the amount of fuel consumed per unit of time by very straight forward calculations. 

 

I have never understood how a tune can change that physical reality very much.  I can see getting more power from the engine - especially a diesel - by force feeding it fuel and having it run more fuel-rich than intended by the manufacturer but I don't understand where the simultaneous mpg boost can come from.  The manufacturer has to tune the engine to meet durability, emissions, and performance goals so they probably leave something on the table with respect to any one of those issues to accommodate the other two.  I'm not against tuning (to the point where emissions are still in check) and I think the performance gains are easy to feel and substantiate, but I am skeptical they can also improve fuel efficiency at the same time.  It seems unlikely that small software shops can beat the automakers at their own game.

 

Steve

 

Addendum - I went back and used my arbitrary 100-hp power requirement from above and did some back calculating...if that happened to be the power demand at 60 mph it would translate to a fuel economy of about 10.8 mpg.  If it happens at 55 mph, then the fuel economy would be about 10 mpg.  I wonder if this is close to what you see, Kevin?  @Pullstart

Edited April 13, 2022 by wh500special

[squonk 41,890]

That's why the guys rev up those 2 cycle Detroit's!