k301 on a short frame 857

[Achto 27,601]

Just now, 953 nut said:

The 241AS is what we call a small block

 

 I have seen 241's with a 301 casting on the block behind the fly wheel.  K241, K301, K321 all share the same cylinder head.

 

[953 nut 55,298]

1 minute ago, Achto said:

 

 I have seen 241's with a 301 casting on the block behind the fly wheel.  K241, K301, K321 all share the same cylinder head.

 

Yes, on the big block but the small block that was used on the 1045 and 1055 is a totally different block and pan.

Both of these are K-241 but the small block is K-241 AS. Piston rod crank cam are all the same, oil pan isn't.

 

[Achto 27,601]

Thanks @953 nut!! Got my schooling for the day. More info to put in my memory bank.

 

[857lover 291]

31 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

The 241AS is what we call a small block, pan from it will not fit a BIG Block. Your best bet is to build a taller hood hinge and steering tower.

Your best

it won’t fit on a 301 ??

[Lee1977 6,664]

If you have a wide base Kohler you can't just bolt on a narrow base the block is different, Go to engines there is a tread at the top by Kelley on Kohler engine types. It show the different types.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Lee1977

[953 nut 55,298]

1 minute ago, 857lover said:

it won’t fit on a 301 ??

NOPE.           You could raise the hood up or put a cool looking hood scoop over the engine. The short oil pan @daveoman1966 showed you is for the small block.

[kpinnc 12,083]

This is confusing. Small blocks were at least in my world K141, 161, and 181.

 

Big block was anything K241 and above. The base being different is the only difference with the "AS" and similar models. Everything internal is the same as with the "S" or any other product line for the same series. John Deere and Cub were common users of that style block and oil pan. I still think that is a big block configuration. 

 

Maybe small oil pan, or small mounting area, but I think it's still a big block. Just my opinion...

[pfrederi 17,741]

10 hours ago, kpinnc said:

This is confusing. Small blocks were at least in my world K141, 161, and 181.

 

Big block was anything K241 and above. The base being different is the only difference with the "AS" and similar models. Everything internal is the same as with the "S" or any other product line for the same series. John Deere and Cub were common users of that style block and oil pan. I still think that is a big block configuration. 

 

Maybe small oil pan, or small mounting area, but I think it's still a big block. Just my opinion...

 

 

A big block...(K241 up to K341)  may be a big base or a small base.  Oil pans are not interchangeable...

[ebinmaine 67,592]

7 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

A big block...(K241 up to K341)  may be a big base or a small base.  Oil pans are not interchangeable...

Interesting information. I knew there was a smaller oil pan back then but never knew that they were not interchangeable with one another....

[pfrederi 17,741]

It is however possible to fit a small base oil pan to a big base block...Did it 14 years ago.  I used a small base cradle (shaker mount) oil pan and  married it to a big base Magnum 12. I would "assume" the shallow pans mentioned above would have the same bolt pattern

If the pan doesn't have the under mount holes maybe a J bolt hook up for that side???

[WHX?? 48,828]

14 hours ago, 953 nut said:

used on the 1045 and 1055 is a totally different block and pan.

Run that by me again Richard I had thought that blocks & internals on a1045/55 were the same as any 241 in a long frame, except for the dipper and non ACR cam,  just a different pan. 

[pfrederi 17,741]

This gets confusing.  1055/1075 used Spec # 46219 (if the chart is correct) It had Oil Pan variant 19 which is a shallow pan drain on carb end.  (B2 in picture.) 236265

 

however 1057/1077 used spec # 46333 (if chart is correct) it had oil pan variant 25 which is deeper pan (B1)  237763

 

Connecting rods  1055/75   used 235383  1057/1077 used 235139 

 

 

[WHX?? 48,828]

I guess I just needed to go reread that pinned thread in engines. Now if I could just remember it! 

Edited March 19, 2022 by WHX??

[Shynon 7,459]

15 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Yes, on the big block but the small block that was used on the 1045 and 1055 is a totally different block and pan.

Both of these are K-241 but the small block is K-241 AS. Piston rod crank cam are all the same, oil pan isn't.

 

The bearing plate,flywheel shroud and generator belt gaurd are also different on the 1045,55,75 and 1046

[ebinmaine 67,592]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

This gets confusing.  1055/1075 used Spec # 46219 (if the chart is correct) It had Oil Pan variant 19 which is a shallow pan drain on carb end.  (B2 in picture.) 236265

 

however 1057/1077 used spec # 46333 (if chart is correct) it had oil pan variant 25 which is deeper pan (B1)  237763

 

Connecting rods  1055/75   used 235383  1057/1077 used 235139 

 

1967 was the first year for the long frame with tall hood. Not at all surprising that the 10 HP engine changed as well.

[953 nut 55,298]

20 hours ago, kpinnc said:

This is confusing. Small blocks were at least in my world K141, 161, and 181.

 

Big block was anything K241 and above. The base being different is the only difference with the "AS" and similar models. Everything internal is the same as with the "S" or any other product line for the same series. John Deere and Cub were common users of that style block and oil pan. I still think that is a big block configuration. 

 

Maybe small oil pan, or small mounting area, but I think it's still a big block. Just my opinion...

                 My bad, should have said Small Pan and Big Pan.        

[kpinnc 12,083]

3 hours ago, 953 nut said:

My bad, should have said Small Pan and Big Pan.        

 

No that was my bad. 3 speed, 4 speed, 6 speed, 8 speed, small block, big block. Long frame, short frame... It's alot to keep up with and far more important that we are just here enjoying these tractors.

 

I think it's perfectly fine to go with things as we've become accustomed to. Everybody does it, and I'm no different. 

[953 nut 55,298]

8 hours ago, kpinnc said:

far more important that we are just here enjoying these tractors.

[wallfish 17,011]

10 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

I think it's perfectly fine to go with things as we've become accustomed to. Everybody does it, and I'm no different.

Engine vs Motor LoL

We're all guilty one way or another!

[ebinmaine 67,592]

13 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Engine vs Motor LoL

We're all guilty one way or another!

Every time I say the "M" word to describe an ENGINE I self discipline. 

😀

[WHX?? 48,828]

22 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

1967 was the first

Someone say '67? 

[pfrederi 17,741]

Using one of WHX?? pics you can see the difference in the oil pan when a big block is used on a long frame 1257 vs a short frame 1075

 

 

[kpinnc 12,083]

So I'm tracking here- the shorter pan has the little oil dipper "trough" cast into it. Does it fit between the frame rails?

 

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Using one of WHX?? pics you can see the difference in the oil pan

 

Until this thread I never thought that style Kohler block and pan was of use to me. I see plenty of these engines for sale and tend to stay away from them. Thanks to all for clearing that up! I might have to pick one up for the heck of it...

Edited March 19, 2022 by kpinnc

[littleredrider 409]

I have a 16 horse on my 606 with a shallow pan from a JD. Pan itself bolted up fine, but needed to drill holes in the frame. Not a huge deal tho. This is also isn't a genny style motor, but regular points/bolt on starter. I trimmed the oil slinger, easy to do. Brian millers page shows how to swap pans as Pfrederi did....

[JoeM 7,874]

8 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Every time I say the "M" word to describe an ENGINE

why do they call it "Motor Oil"? 

 

Dag gon it EB I had to do it. Referenced MIT School of Engineering, this is part of what I found. (You can stop correcting yourself I think)

 

The Oxford English Dictionary defines “motor” as a machine that supplies motive power for a vehicle or other device with moving parts. Similarly, it tells us that an engine is a machine with moving parts that converts power into motion. “We use the words interchangeably now,” says Fuller. “But originally, they meant very different things.”

“Motor” is rooted in the Classical Latin movere, “to move.” It first referred to propulsive force, and later, to the person or device that moved something or caused movement. “As the word came through French into English, it was used in the sense of ‘initiator,’” says Fuller. “A person could be the motor of a plot or a political organization.” By the end of the 19th century, the Second Industrial Revolution had dotted the landscape with steel mills and factories, steamships and railways, and a new word was needed for the mechanisms that powered them. Rooted in the concept of motion, “motor” was the logical choice, and by 1899, it had entered the vernacular as the word for Duryea and Olds’ newfangled horseless carriages.

“Engine” is from the Latin ingenium: character, mental powers, talent, intellect, or cleverness. In its journey through French and into English, the word came to mean ingenuity, contrivance, and trick or malice. “In the 15th century, it also referred to a physical device: an instrument of torture, an apparatus for catching game, a net, trap, or decoy,” says Fuller.

In the early 19th century, the meanings of motor and engine had already begun to converge, both referring to a mechanism providing propulsive force.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by JoeM