414-8 unidrive F plate replacement

[Mustang67ford 234]

So after being dold to check the plate on my frame where the unidrive bolts, I did that to find it is pretty bad.  Here is a pic.  What would be the recommended repair? Do I knock the welds off and replace or do I just weld up the cracks and try to do repairs?  I have concers trying to get the alignment right if I try to replace, but then again, it looks like by inserting the brake rod and lift bar, it should align.  Probably the toughest issue I ran into so far.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[JPWH 6,147]

I welded the cracks on my 864 then added another 1/4" plate but I did not have the raised beads. Some have made repairs and added angle braces to the frame rails.

[Mustang67ford 234]

7 minutes ago, JPWH said:

I welded the cracks on my 864 then added another 1/4" plate but I did not have the raised beads. Some have made repairs and added angle braces to the frame rails.

What are the bolt holes for on the bottom of the plate sides?  I was looking at some of the braces that were made but they seem to use this hole and would the angles interfere with any attachments?  I also read about a reinforcement kit that was offered from the factory.  I will definitely be adding reinforcement, but first I need to figure out how to get back to a starting point.  Do I weld it up or replace the frame?  I kind of ruled out trying to knock the f plate off and welding on a replacement due to possible alignment issues.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[oliver2-44 9,929]

I've read the horizontal holes at the bottom of the F plate are for a ron for a sickle bar mower.

 

I would weld the cracks that  you can get to inplace. but welds create stresses... So, I would make some spacers the thickness of those ribs for filler and make a full size plate to bolt over all of it. The full size blate can have some braces that angle forward/up to the frame.

[8ntruck 7,183]

If you use a pneumatic needle de-scaler after you weld, it will relieve the stresses introduced by the weld.  The de-scaler leaves a layer of compressive residual stress in the part that will help prevent fatigue cracks from forming or growing.

[Mustang67ford 234]

I think I'm going to just replace the frame.  Probably less time doing that then trying to repair.  How would you then reinforce a factory 414 frame with the 2 ribs across the back and it not being flat?  I'm thinking a plate with cut outs for the ribs the angle iron supports?  If going with washer spacers, I think that is just a place for debris and moisture to accumulate in between.  I need to make sure whatever I do, I'm not impeding a possible future attachment

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[oliver2-44 9,929]

3 minutes ago, Mustang67ford said:

  If going with washer spacers, I think that is just a place for debris and moisture to accumulate in between. 

The ribs essentially go all the way across so no side metal with much strength left if you try to do cutouts
I would use full size plate spacers to fill the space, not washers. A new to you used frame will already have some fatigue stresses in it. It’s a lot of work to completely strip a horse to replace a frame. 

[daveoman1966 3,762]

Here is a secure and solid way to repair that frame plate, without any welding...although that is optional. Not only does this method repair the frame plate, but also reinforces the corners...which is where they commonly crack.  Use 3/16 or 1/4" 2x2 angle iron. 

 

 

WHEELHORSE FRAME PLATE FIX.pdf

Edited March 15, 2022 by daveoman1966

[ri702bill 8,564]

AS @JPWH mentioned earlier, I am one of those that added a reinforcing plate and diagonal braces to stop the frame flexing. Plowing or tilling imparts a lot of vibration and stress on that plate and the welds to the frame rails.

This is what I did on the C81 this year - all 3 pieces BOLT IN using existing holes. (The plate has the spacers welded to the backside and it COULD be welded into the frame plate - I did not, my frame was in great shape already). The 2 braces have raised features that pilot into the lower holes to lock them in place.

Edited March 15, 2022 by ri702bill

[ri702bill 8,564]

Another option - a member on this site fixed a frame by having a local sheet metal or welding shop duplicate the U-shaped frame plate for him.

[Mustang67ford 234]

8 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

The ribs essentially go all the way across so no side metal with much strength left if you try to do cutouts
I would use full size plate spacers to fill the space, not washers. A new to you used frame will already have some fatigue stresses in it. It’s a lot of work to completely strip a horse to replace a frame. 

I am in the process of restoring so it is already somewhat stripped down.  Glad @ri702bill mentioned to check this plate before I started on the bulk of reassembly.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[Mustang67ford 234]

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

AS @JPWH mentioned earlier, I am one of those that added a reinforcing plate and diagonal braces to stop the frame flexing. Plowing or tilling imparts a lot of vibration and stress on that plate and the welds to the frame rails.

This is what I did on the C81 this year - all 3 pieces BOLT IN using existing holes. (The plate has the spacers welded to the backside and it COULD be welded into the frame plate - I did not, my frame was in great shape already). The 2 braces have raised features that pilot into the lower holes to lock them in place.

Good job.  Thats a good idea to weld strips to the back to build around the strips.  What metal thickness, 1/8" steel plate and spacers?  So you essentially have a solid plate with 3 strups welded to the back correct?   For the sides, what if you need to use the holes for an attachment?  I'm thinking of welding the angle supports to the plate itself and running above or below the holes.  Maybe even drop ears down from the angle support that could be bolted to the side holes.  The bolts could be removed for an attachment if needed and would allow for some reinforcement.  Or put the supports where you have them, welded to the plate, and put a bolt thru the supports.  This helps, thanks.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[ri702bill 8,564]

Two 1/8" flat straps tack welded to the plate. Side braces are removable - I added these because of the 48" plow.

[ri702bill 8,564]

1 hour ago, Mustang67ford said:

Glad @ri702bill mentioned to check this plate before I started on the bulk of reassembly.

Glad to have helped - best to find it now rather than break the frame apart.

[peter lena 8,878]

@Mustang67ford  agree with the reinforcement  plating , set up . working in a metal shop we had metal breaks ,100 tons . the capability to make anything . would regularly make up stuff as the need came in to view,  also our  metal scrap dumpsters , were a treasure trove of , goodies , only needed a scrap pass.  back in the day , pete

[Mustang67ford 234]

11 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Two 1/8" flat straps tack welded to the plate. Side braces are removable - I added these because of the 48" plow.

Do the side braces interfere with a mower deck being raised?  Is the plate 1/8" also?  Assuming the welded strips were above and below the f plate strips with the middle left open , correct?

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[ri702bill 8,564]

Nope - I put the deck you see off to the side back on the same day when I was done - no issues

Edited March 15, 2022 by ri702bill

[ri702bill 8,564]

13 hours ago, Mustang67ford said:

I also read about a reinforcement kit that was offered from the factory.

It is my understanding that the kit you refer to is NLA from Toro.

Bill

 

Found it! I had saved a copy as a reference.

WH61-90 _425 Rear frame repair C- 300- 400- 500-Series.pdf

Edited March 15, 2022 by ri702bill

[Mustang67ford 234]

2 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Nope - I put the deck you see off to the side back on the same day when I was done - no issues

Is your main plate 1/8" also?

[ri702bill 8,564]

No - the main plate is 1/4 x 6 x 6 hot rolled steel.

[ri702bill 8,564]

4 hours ago, peter lena said:

only needed a scrap pass.  back in the day

Pack a lunch and good to go!!

[Mustang67ford 234]

3 hours ago, ri702bill said:

No - the main plate is 1/4 x 6 x 6 hot rolled steel.

That one heck of of a plate, 1/4" thick.

[Lee1977 6,874]

I used 1 1/2" x 1/4" steel and ground the edges to fit between the ridges. Then braced up to the frame at the bottom. It blocked the hole for the sickle bar, finding one around will be next to possible..

Mine are there to keep from breaking the transmission plate.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Lee1977

[Mustang67ford 234]

Anybody know what the single hole is for on the plate between the upper 2 bolts?  Can it be covered up by reinforcement plate?

 

@ri702bill on the side rails where you bolted the bracket for the angles, did you drill them out to a larger size?  Mine has smaller holes and the bolts for the tunnel seem to tap into the rails; no nuts on the other side.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[Handy Don 12,663]

On hydro tractors that single hole permits the rear lift cable to pass through the F plate. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Handy Don