Eaton 700 removal/replacement on 312-A

[davem1111 2,030]

I had mentioned in at least one other thread that I was having trouble with the hydro on my 312-A.  Decided to start a new thread on this. It had been leaking oil, and even though I kept the reservoir topped off, it seems to have given up the ghost. So I bought another Eaton 700 pump and now am stuck on removal of the old one.

 

I've disconnected everything and removed the 4 bolts holding it to the transaxle, but it won't budge. I've tried some light tapping with a metal bar and hammer, but am afraid to get too aggressive with this. Is there some trick to getting these loose? 

 

Also, I didn't think about the gasket, and now know I should buy a new one. Any recommendations on where to get this?  The 312-A IPL lists a 108319 gasket which looks like the right one. I found this, which says it's for an Eaton 1100 but I'm going to guess they are the same... ?   https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/108319-eaton-1100-transmission-gasket/

 

Thanks!

[stevasaurus 22,764]

Click on this link...it is our "Manuals" section and has a few Eaton 7 manuals there for down load.  

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/category/24-automatic-hydro/

[Handy Don 12,235]

The 700 and the 1100 attach to the same transaxles but with important differences.

The 700 uses an adaptor collar so there are two gaskets--motor-to-collar and collar-to-transaxle. If you haven't separated the collar from the motor then you don't need that one. That said, there is no standing or pumped oil that high up in the transaxle with either hydro so the gaskets' jobs are to make a basic seal for splashed oil, to accommodate any slight discrepancies where the metal surfaces meet, and to provide the right spacing to meet the gear meshing specs.

The collar (aka Hydro Adaptor) is #24 and the gaskets are Nos. 5 (#7951)and 25. Number 25 (#108319) is used by both 700 and 1100 and that's the one in the link you sent.

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

 

2 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Click on this link...it is our "Manuals" section and has a few Eaton 7 manuals there for down load.  

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/category/24-automatic-hydro/

 

I have the manuals. They just say "remove the bolts, and remove the pump" or something like that. I think my gasket is basically "glueing" my pump to the housing. Wondering if anyone else has had trouble with something like this, and whether a bit of hammering should free it up or if there's some other trick I could try.  

 

Quote

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

The 700 and the 1100 attach to the same transaxles but with important differences.

The 700 uses an adaptor collar so there are two gaskets--motor-to-collar and collar-to-transaxle. If you haven't separated the collar from the motor then you don't need that one. That said, there is no standing or pumped oil that high up in the transaxle with either hydro so the gaskets' jobs are to make a basic seal for splashed oil, to accommodate any slight discrepancies where the metal surfaces meet, and to provide the right spacing to meet the gear meshing specs.

The collar (aka Hydro Adaptor) is #24 and the gaskets are Nos. 5 (#7951)and 25. Number 25 (#108319) is used by both 700 and 1100 and that's the one in the link you sent.

 

 

I don't plan to separate the collar. The replacement pump has the collar on it.  So I only need Number 25 (#108317).   Thanks for confirming that. 

 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

This is beyond my expertise...sorry...I have not had the chance to tear into a hydro...yet.  

[davem1111 2,030]

6 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

This is beyond my expertise...sorry...I have not had the chance to tear into a hydro...yet.  

 

No problem - thanks for replying.  Knowing what I do know, there should be nothing else holding this thing together. Maybe I'll try working something thin between the pump and the housing to see if I can loosen it. 

[squonk 41,150]

I had to separate the pump on a 1100 once. It was really stuck. I though I was going to break something. Finally got it off. There isn't much on those pumps to grab on to. I was able to catch an edge with a bent flat pry bar and hit the end of the bar with a hammer. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

27 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

 

 

I have the manuals. They just say "remove the bolts, and remove the pump" or something like that. I think my gasket is basically "glueing" my pump to the housing. Wondering if anyone else has had trouble with something like this, and whether a bit of hammering should free it up or if there's some other trick I could try.  

 

 

I don't plan to separate the collar. The replacement pump has the collar on it.  So I only need Number 25 (#108317).   Thanks for confirming that. 

 

I removed a 700 and gave it to another member last year. I was careful, as your seller was, to keep the pump and collar together. I used a painter's scraper (like a very heavy putty knife that can be struck lightly like a chisel) to gently start the separation at the #25 gasket, which will absolutely need replacing to do a good job even if it appears to come off "clean".

Edited March 6, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,030]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I removed a 700 and gave it to another member last year. I was careful, as your seller was, to keep the pump and collar together. I used a painter's scraper (like a very heavy putty knife that can be struck lightly like a chisel) to gently start the separation at the #25 gasket, which will absolutely need replacing to do a good job even if it appears to come off "clean".

 

I managed to get it loose.  I had an old hardened steel flat cutoff blade from a printing factory I used to work in a long time ago. Lined it up on the seam and hammered a bit.  

 

And my wife wonders why I want to keep all this "junk"....  

 

Now I'm waiting for the new gasket to show up and we'll see how this "new" pump does.  

 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

Good people behind me..  listen to them.  I do know that. 

[Dylan2342 11]

I am very sorry that I didn't see this. I literally had to take a chisel and hammer to the two top corners of mine. once you "crack" the seal on the gasket, it comes right off. I used a wire wheel and drill to clean up the surface as shiny as I could.

 

Edit: just to be clear, I was trying to push the chisel directly into the seam. I think of it being similar to a wedge to split wood. The purpose was to spread the two metal pieces apart.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dylan2342

[davem1111 2,030]

So, I finally got the "new" 700 mounted, and have the control plate re-attached. But then I noticed that the clutch idler pulley doesn't line up with the pulley on the 700 - the idler is about 1/4" closer to the frame. I measured the pulley offset on the old 700 and it looks the same, so I'm guessing it was this way all along. Wondering if I should put a shim washer behind the idler pulley, or just leave it alone?  It will probably wear away at the edge of the drive belt (which I think I replaced a few years ago without noticing the offset).  

 

Also, is there anything special I need to do before putting this 700 back into service, other than just keeping the reservoir up to the proper level as it re-fills with oil?  And I think the specs say to use SAE 30 oil - any advice on that before I refill it?

 

Thanks!  With any luck, this baby will be rolling again next weekend.  I did take my 416-8 out for a short spin yesterday, after putting a brand new pair of wheels and tires on the front and putting an aftermarket fuel pump on it a few weeks ago.

Edited March 22, 2022 by davem1111

[Handy Don 12,235]

2 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

clutch idler pulley doesn't line up with the pulley on the 700

All three pulleys must be very closely aligned: Engine, hydro input, and idler. I use a long piece of copper pipe and rest it on the pulleys, but use whatever straightedge you have (I just got a Bosch laser level and I might try it's vertical function next time ). If they are not aligned, your drive belt and the bearings in the idler will have surprisingly short lives AND be noisy in the bargain. Yes, use a bushing or shim on the idler axle as needed but START with alignment of engine to pump then bring the idler into it.

[davem1111 2,030]

On 3/21/2022 at 9:54 PM, Handy Don said:

All three pulleys must be very closely aligned: Engine, hydro input, and idler. I use a long piece of copper pipe and rest it on the pulleys, but use whatever straightedge you have (I just got a Bosch laser level and I might try it's vertical function next time ). If they are not aligned, your drive belt and the bearings in the idler will have surprisingly short lives AND be noisy in the bargain. Yes, use a bushing or shim on the idler axle as needed but START with alignment of engine to pump then bring the idler into it.

 

I took the idler pulley off and put a couple of washers behind it, so now the belt lines up pretty closely (but the engage/disengage handle is now very hard to move...). I've cranked the engine over a few times but haven't run it yet because I need to replace a leaking gas tank valve, fuel filter and line, and maybe fuel pump. Parts should be here Tuesday.

 

In the meantime, I still have a question about the hydro pump. I got the pump installed and filled the reservoir, but there was no drop in level at all. The pump hasn't really engaged yet since I've only been cranking the engine with the clutch/brake pedal depressed.  I was assuming that the pump didn't have any oil in it, so shouldn't the oil from the reservoir go into the pump, at least some of it?  I think I've seen mention of running a pump dry can kill it, so I don't want to do that.   How can I know when it's safe to engage the pump? 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

I don't have any direct experience with filling an empty (?) 700. What does the manual say is the capacity? Do you know for sure it was empty when you got it?

 

If it were mine, I'd pull the right rear wheel, drop the drive belt and rig up some way for a cordless drill to crank the pump at a low speed (counter clockwise! -- set drill in REVERSE --  and be sure the motion lever is in neutral). I'd do several short spins with minutes between to let oil force out any trapped air bubbles, topping up the the "cold fill" line as needed.

 

If after a while the oil level is stable, I'd assume the thing is full. Then every few minutes when the transmission is first being operated under engine power, I'd re-check the oil level.

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

4 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I don't have any direct experience with filling an empty (?) 700. What does the manual say is the capacity? Do you know for sure it was empty when you got it?

 

If it were mine, I'd pull the right rear wheel, drop the drive belt and rig up some way for a cordless drill to crank the pump at a low speed (counter clockwise! -- set drill in REVERSE --  and be sure the motion lever is in neutral). I'd do several short spins with minutes between to let oil force out any trapped air bubbles, topping up the the "cold fill" line as needed.

 

If after a while the oil level is stable, I'd assume the thing is full. Then every few minutes when the transmission is first being operated under engine power, I'd re-check the oil level.

 

 

 

Hmmm... regarding whether it was empty when I got it...  I just assumed that it was, because nothing was leaking out no matter what position it was in. Pretty sure I turned it over so the fill nipple was down at some point, but maybe oil that's "in" won't come back "out" that way?  I don't want to mess with the drain plug because that was one problem with my old one - it leaked constantly from there. Probably what killed it.

 

Right rear wheel is still off. I spun the pulley by hand a few times before putting the drive belt on, but nothing happened. I suppose I could remove the brand-new fan I just put on, and bolt something else on there that I can either turn with a drill or by hand somehow. I'm pretty good at "custom" rigging  so I'm sure I can come up with something. 

 

That said, I bought this pump "used" and don't think there was any guarantee that it was working when pulled (I bought it from  @Dylan2342 , pretty sure he got it with a used axle he bought but just pulled this pump because he didn't need it). So, I may potentially be looking at trying my hand at a pump rebuild, which is not out of the question (but not a happy thought).   

 

I'll try to ease into it easily - when I get the engine running I'll just slowly engage the belt a bit at a time. I'm sure hoping it's got oil in it and is ready to roll.... 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

The Eaton 7 manual says "3/4 Qt. SAE 20 Premium Motor Oil".   I thought I had seen "SAE 30" somewhere else, so that's what I put in the reservoir. Of course, none of it has actually gone into the pump yet so if 30 wt. is a bad idea, I can drain that and put in 20.  

[Handy Don 12,235]

4 hours ago, davem1111 said:

The Eaton 7 manual says "3/4 Qt. SAE 20 Premium Motor Oil".   I thought I had seen "SAE 30" somewhere else, so that's what I put in the reservoir. Of course, none of it has actually gone into the pump yet so if 30 wt. is a bad idea, I can drain that and put in 20.  

I tend to be a "read and follow the manual" kind of guy -- a reaction, I'm sure, to my Dad who was a "when nothing else works, try the manual" fellow.

 

If you can siphon out the 30 and put in some 20 (or even some 10 to blend with the 30?) over time I think you'll be ok. The diff between 20 and 30 when the weather is warm isn't likely to harm it, IMHO, but may make it a bit sluggish.

 

I do know that there is not a lot of empty space inside that housing and I believe it would be hard to drain it unless it's open on two sides  and you cycled it--otherwise it'll airlock in all the nooks and crannies and inside the pump and motor. I was amazed at the one I gave away when I went to pack it only a couple ounces came out before I taped the top opening shut. And I am with you on not opening the bottom except as a last resort. (You could always test emptying only from the fill port with the "dead" one, right?)

 

Remember that in normal operation, that pump is turning at well over 1,000 rpm. Short test runs at a couple of hundred, knowing that there must be SOME oil in there doesn't seem too risky. Chuck a pulley into the drill and use a belt? Leave the fan on and run a belt from the PTO of the other WH (as, I think @stevasaurus does after his rebuilds)? Chock the wheels and put the motion control in full forward or reverse to see if the thing is actually pushing power through to the transaxle (with the wheel off, only that hub is likely to spin but better safe than surprised).

Edited March 29, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,030]

DANG IT!     I finally got some time to fire up the 312-A with the "new" hydro, and IT DOESN'T WORK!!  

 

I let it sit for about 2 weeks, and some of the oil in the reservoir went down, so I refilled it.  Started the engine, running at low throttle, and engaged the idler wheel, a bit slowly at first.  Push and pull the motion handle....  Nothin.

 

I guess I'm going to be looking for a whole rear end that is known to be working - not wasting more money on a hydro in unknown condition.  

 

Very disappointing.  At least I have the 416-8 running pretty good now...

[davem1111 2,030]

Anyone know if this would fit on a 312-A?   Looks like it has the Eaton 11 hydro:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313852236735?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3D61672f939fb7447881a85cfee1ba933c%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D124812444350%26itm%3D313852236735%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2334524%26brand%3DWheel+Horse&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042

 

[davem1111 2,030]

Or this one?   I think there might be an issue with the oil filter and the stock gas tank shape on the 312-A, from the looks of it. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264236400238?hash=item3d85b77e6e:g:rb4AAOSwMG1dZCCO

 

This and the one I posted before are within a "reasonable" driving distance for pick up...

[Handy Don 12,235]

31 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

DANG IT!     I finally got some time to fire up the 312-A with the "new" hydro, and IT DOESN'T WORK!!  

 

I let it sit for about 2 weeks, and some of the oil in the reservoir went down, so I refilled it.  Started the engine, running at low throttle, and engaged the idler wheel, a bit slowly at first.  Push and pull the motion handle....  Nothin.

 

I guess I'm going to be looking for a whole rear end that is known to be working - not wasting more money on a hydro in unknown condition.  

 

Very disappointing.  At least I have the 416-8 running pretty good now...

Extremely disappointing.

Just to recap, the 700 is installed on the transaxle and you've reassembled the tractor?

Admittedly at a distance, but I'd expect that even a worn 700 would push some sort of power through it. Could the linkage not be doing what it's supposed to do?

Pictures of the top of the trans would be good. With fender removed even better.

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

2 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

Or this one?   I think there might be an issue with the oil filter and the stock gas tank shape on the 312-A, from the looks of it. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264236400238?hash=item3d85b77e6e:g:rb4AAOSwMG1dZCCO

 

This and the one I posted before are within a "reasonable" driving distance for pick up...

Frankly, this option was part of the earlier discussion in the thread and at that point I cautioned about trying to get the 1100 into the 312-A. In general, it fits but there are details that might be frustrating--gas tank, motion control linkage, charge pump/hydro implement plumbing, and oil filter among them. 

 

The dirty red one in your first link looks like it was removed by someone who seems to know their business. The dipstick and top-of-trans hole were plugged to prevent dirt getting in. I can't see the charge pump output port but the inlet pipe was left open--not so good. There is no oil filter and the feed from the charge pump to the oil filter would have to be fabricated (assuming it wasn't being directed to an implement first).

 

The black one is probably off a Work Horse and does have the oil fitter and mount. but I'm not sure about the rest of the plumbing. Top-of-trans holes are unprotected and the price is VERY high.

 

If I were buying this myself, I'd want to be sure it'd work by either: a) seeing it work, b) having some someone I trust tell me they saw it work, or c) trusting the seller would take it back if it didn't work. 

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

29 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Frankly, this option was part of the earlier discussion in the thread and at that point I cautioned about trying to get the 1100 into the 312-A. In general, it fits but there are details that might be frustrating--gas tank, motion control linkage, charge pump/hydro implement plumbing, and oil filter among them. 

 

The dirty red one in your first link looks like it was removed by someone who seems to know their business. The dipstick and top-of-trans hole were plugged to prevent dirt getting in. I can't see the charge pump output port but the inlet pipe was left open--not so good. There is no oil filter and the feed from the charge pump to the oil filter would have to be fabricated (assuming it wasn't being directed to an implement first).

 

The black one is probably off a Work Horse and does have the oil fitter and mount. but I'm not sure about the rest of the plumbing. Top-of-trans holes are unprotected and the price is VERY high.

 

If I were buying this myself, I'd want to be sure it'd work by either: a) seeing it work, b) having some someone I trust tell me they saw it work, or c) trusting the seller would take it back if it didn't work. 

 

 

 

First, I forgot to mention regarding the price on the black one - I had contacted the seller a while back and he said if I picked it up and paid cash, he'd let me have it for $250. Don't know if that offer still stands but probably.  

 

The problems with trying to fit in one with an oil filter and/or fabricating oil lines and such is enough to make me back off from that idea. Since it looks like I now have two non-functional Eaton 700 pumps, maybe I'll attempt a rebuild.  Since I have the other tractor working well for mowing, it's not so urgent, and maybe I'll just take my time and do more of a cosmetic restore on the 312-A. But I'd like to make sure I have a functioning transmission first. .

 

Posting a few pictures soon.  I think I have everything re-assembled correctly. No leaks anywhere. Linkage seems to move the flange and arm properly. No noise at all from the pump. Hmmm.

[davem1111 2,030]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Extremely disappointing.

Just to recap, the 700 is installed on the transaxle and you've reassembled the tractor?

Admittedly at a distance, but I'd expect that even a worn 700 would push some sort of power through it. Could the linkage not be doing what it's supposed to do?

Pictures of the top of the trans would be good. With fender removed even better.

 

 

I have the fuel line installed so the tractor will run, haven't re-assembled much else.  No movement in either wheel when the lever is moved. Wheels can be turned by hand.