Eaton 700 removal/replacement on 312-A

[davem1111 2,030]

Here is a picture of the old pump, not that I think that will help anything 

[davem1111 2,030]

FYI, I fired it up again and gave it more throttle.  Now I'm hearing a metallic rattle from the pump.  Pretty sure it's toast.

[davem1111 2,030]

Curious - aside from replacing the shifter plate, what challenges would I have in converting this to an 8-speed?  Does anything need to change with the drive belt?  

 

Would something like this work?   https://www.ebay.com/itm/265426480520

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

Curious - aside from replacing the shifter plate, what challenges would I have in converting this to an 8-speed?  Does anything need to change with the drive belt?  

 

Would something like this work?   https://www.ebay.com/itm/265426480520

 

I feel your frustration.

The 8-speed transaxle will fit, but there are a lot of parts under the shifter plate that are hydro-specific (motion linkage, neutral cam, etc). Plus, you'd need to resolve the clutch--you have a shaft and pulley, but the pulley size/placement on the right side is different for an 8-speed and yours doesn't have the left side arm that attaches to the clutch/brake pedal rod, or the rod/linkage parts).

Please give Lincoln at A-to-Z tractor a call on Monday. He does not sell parts that he hasn't confirmed good. I think if he has a 700 pump/motor that he's willing to sell, it'll be working. I

 

Last think. Since you are kind of at wits end, could you:

a) double check that the oil reservoir,

b) lower the tractor onto its wheels and try to push it forward and backward -- a 700 should let you push it slowly and it'll move the internal parts of the motor/pump

 

With the tractor back off the wheels, you can try removing the cam plate on top of the hydro so that the hydro control arm is completely free then test its range of motion (gently). Then, put that arm in the Neutral position (as close as you can guess) and start the engine in idle and see if gently moving the motion arm across its full forward/reverse range has any effect. 

 

Good luck!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,030]

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I feel your frustration.

The 8-speed transaxle will fit, but there are a lot of parts under the shifter plate that are hydro-specific (motion linkage, neutral cam, etc). Plus, you'd need to resolve the clutch--you have a shaft and pulley, but the pulley size/placement on the right side is different for an 8-speed and yours doesn't have the left side arm that attaches to the clutch/brake pedal rod, or the rod/linkage parts).

Please give Lincoln at A-to-Z tractor a call on Monday. He does not sell parts that he hasn't confirmed good. I think if he has a 700 pump/motor that he's willing to sell, it'll be working. I

 

Last think. Since you are kind of at wits end, could you:

a) double check that the oil reservoir,

b) lower the tractor onto its wheels and try to push it forward and backward -- a 700 should let you push it slowly and it'll move the internal parts of the motor/pump

 

With the tractor back off the wheels, you can try removing the cam plate on top of the hydro so that the hydro control arm is completely free then test its range of motion (gently). Then, put that arm in the Neutral position (as close as you can guess) and start the engine in idle and see if gently moving the motion arm across its full forward/reverse range has any effect. 

 

Good luck!

 

I'll call Lincoln Monday and see if he has one - good idea.  In the meantime, you've made some more good suggestions.  I didn't think it would matter that the tractor was jacked up and one wheel was off, but it wouldn't take long to put the wheel back on and drop it to try that. The reservoir is at the proper level.  Going back to what I said in the beginning, I don't know if there was any oil in it to start with, and so far only about one reservoir full has drained into the pump as far as I know. Not sure if that's enough.

 

Oh yeah, sounds like the conversion to 8-speed is a bit more than I want to mess with. 

 

Being pretty much "dead in the water", I thought maybe I'd remove the plastic plug on the bottom and drain the pump, but the damn thing won't come loose (and yes, I know it's reverse-threaded).  The one on the old pump unscrewed easily (but that thing used to leak, which may have been the cause of my problems with *that* pump..)    Ugh.   If I damage the plug on the "new" pump trying to get it out, at least I have the other plug, but I don't see a whole lot of point in pushing that line of troubleshooting.  Hell, I'm about ready to put the old pump back on just to see what happens.    

 

I think I need to re-visit the Eaton 700 manual to see what they recommend doing after a rebuild. There has to be a way to make sure the thing has enough oil in it before using it. 

 

Oh, here's what they say.  This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What "opening in body"?  If I take out the hex plug, won't the oil just run straight through? With the external reservoir, you'd have to turn the pump upside down for the hex plug to be "up".  Or maybe this should be done before mounting it to the tractor?  

 

 

Edit to add:  I just tried putting it back on the ground.  It rolls freely no matter what is in what position - no resistance at all. Engine running, lever doesn't induce any motion at all.  I get the part about removing the cam plate and moving the arm by itself, which I may try tomorrow, but the cam is moving it about as much in either direction as it seems it should, so it seems like I'd get *something*.  It's almost like the spline isn't engaged, but I don't think it's possible to mount the pump without the spline engaging. I had to jiggle it a bit to get it to start in so I think the spline teeth were hitting the transaxle gear. I didn't caliper the spline but it sure looked exactly the same as the old one.  And again, there were some sounds coming from the pump at higher throttle.   

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by davem1111

[Handy Don 12,235]

37 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

 

I'll call Lincoln Monday and see if he has one - good idea.  In the meantime, you've made some more good suggestions.  I didn't think it would matter that the tractor was jacked up and one wheel was off, but it wouldn't take long to put the wheel back on and drop it to try that. The reservoir is at the proper level.  Going back to what I said in the beginning, I don't know if there was any oil in it to start with, and so far only about one reservoir full has drained into the pump as far as I know. Not sure if that's enough.

 

Oh yeah, sounds like the conversion to 8-speed is a bit more than I want to mess with. 

 

Being pretty much "dead in the water", I thought maybe I'd remove the plastic plug on the bottom and drain the pump, but the damn thing won't come loose (and yes, I know it's reverse-threaded).  The one on the old pump unscrewed easily (but that thing used to leak, which may have been the cause of my problems with *that* pump..)    Ugh.   If I damage the plug on the "new" pump trying to get it out, at least I have the other plug, but I don't see a whole lot of point in pushing that line of troubleshooting.  Hell, I'm about ready to put the old pump back on just to see what happens.    

 

I think I need to re-visit the Eaton 700 manual to see what they recommend doing after a rebuild. There has to be a way to make sure the thing has enough oil in it before using it. 

 

Oh, here's what they say.  This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What "opening in body"?  If I take out the hex plug, won't the oil just run straight through? With the external reservoir, you'd have to turn the pump upside down for the hex plug to be "up".  Or maybe this should be done before mounting it to the tractor?  

 

 

Edit to add:  I just tried putting it back on the ground.  It rolls freely no matter what is in what position - no resistance at all. Engine running, lever doesn't induce any motion at all.  I get the part about removing the cam plate and moving the arm by itself, which I may try tomorrow, but the cam is moving it about as much in either direction as it seems it should, so it seems like I'd get *something*.  It's almost like the spline isn't engaged, but I don't think it's possible to mount the pump without the spline engaging. I had to jiggle it a bit to get it to start in so I think the spline teeth were hitting the transaxle gear. I didn't caliper the spline but it sure looked exactly the same as the old one.  And again, there were some sounds coming from the pump at higher throttle.   

 

I'm convinced at this point that there is no, or very little, oil in there. It should roll, but NOT easily AT ALL if the hydro is connected. 

I agree, too, that the manual is wonky about filling it! It almost sounds like they want the bottom plug out, so that oil flows through, then turn shafts to force the air out, then plug it and top it off. I've never had a bottom plug out, so I don't know if it just drains or if you have to turn one of the shafts to move the oil for it to come out the bottom. For sure, they think that it should be filled before it is mounted on the transaxle.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to take it off again and see if you can get that plug out!

[davem1111 2,030]

10 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I'm convinced at this point that there is no, or very little, oil in there. It should roll, but NOT easily AT ALL if the hydro is connected. 

I agree, too, that the manual is wonky about filling it! It almost sounds like they want the bottom plug out, so that oil flows through, then turn shafts to force the air out, then plug it and top it off. I've never had a bottom plug out, so I don't know if it just drains or if you have to turn one of the shafts to move the oil for it to come out the bottom. For sure, they think that it should be filled before it is mounted on the transaxle.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to take it off again and see if you can get that plug out!

 

Yeah, the second time removing/installing one of these should be easier, so maybe I'll pull it again tomorrow.

 

I just sent an email to A-Z Tractors, and will call Monday or Tuesday if I don't get a reply by then. I looked at their website and they have a LOT of WH parts tractors. Since I'm not in a big hurry, hopefully they can pull one for me at their leisure, unless I get this one working (which I still feel is unlikely - would I have killed it anyway running it with no or little oil for a few minutes?).

[davem1111 2,030]

I've got the pump back off, and when I pulled it from the casing, a bunch of oil ran out onto the top of the transaxle. The pump has a small drain hole on the side with the spline gear that goes into the casing, so I assume it came out of there.  I left the reservoir attached so oil wouldn't leak from the top. 

 

Tried again to remove the plastic drain plug and it is seriously in there tight. I'll probably destroy it to get it out, so I'm leaving it alone for now.  This one had a regular 3/4" bolt in the smaller drain hole next to the plastic one instead of an Allen hex head (like the old pump has and the docs appear to say should be there). No biggie.  I removed that bolt and slowly turned the pump over, and oil started to come out. It looked like a little water came out too. Oil looks a little "milky".   Not good.  I think I'll let it sit and drain for a while.  Then maybe I'll turn it upside down and fill it with oil through that plug hole, then re-plug it.   Putting it back on for another try isn't too daunting at this point, so I guess I'll give it one more try.  

[Handy Don 12,235]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

I've got the pump back off, and when I pulled it from the casing, a bunch of oil ran out onto the top of the transaxle. The pump has a small drain hole on the side with the spline gear that goes into the casing, so I assume it came out of there.  I left the reservoir attached so oil wouldn't leak from the top. 

 

Tried again to remove the plastic drain plug and it is seriously in there tight. I'll probably destroy it to get it out, so I'm leaving it alone for now.  This one had a regular 3/4" bolt in the smaller drain hole next to the plastic one instead of an Allen hex head (like the old pump has and the docs appear to say should be there). No biggie.  I removed that bolt and slowly turned the pump over, and oil started to come out. It looked like a little water came out too. Oil looks a little "milky".   Not good.  I think I'll let it sit and drain for a while.  Then maybe I'll turn it upside down and fill it with oil through that plug hole, then re-plug it.   Putting it back on for another try isn't too daunting at this point, so I guess I'll give it one more try.  

I am here admiring your tenacity (and patience) while fervently hoping that it'll come together for you. My modus operandi when faced with recalcitrants is often to retire to dignified silence until re-motivated (which can take weeks; look around my shop) or to drop the whole thing in disgust.

 

Do you think that small hole may be the one referred to in the manual, as in "fluid overflows from opening in the body"?

 

That the plug won't come out is making me wonder--was it was put in too far and jammed against internal parts? There is not a lot of clearance in there between moving parts and the casing. BTW, one trick that has worked often for me with stuck bolts/screws/setscrews/nuts/etc. is to tighten it slightly before trying to remove it.

 

Keep track of how much oil comes out. The manual calls for ¾ quart of 20wt oil, as you already know, so if you can get to where you have close to that much in there, it'll be encouraging. If you do decide to tear into one, be sure to capture the rotating balls in their respective recesses--I read that once the unit has been run for a while, they are NOT interchangeable.

 

Last thing for today: Lincoln is a busy, busy guy right now (lots of tractors coming out of hibernation and needing work) so it can be days before he catches up on emails. I always send a descriptive email, then do a brief follow-up call a day later just to bring his attention to the email, and then let him get back to me, which he always does. BTW, the website pictures are illustrative but not current. He turns over so much stuff that I'm amazed he can keep track of what he has!

 

Keep up the good fight!

 

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

I am here admiring your tenacity (and patience) while fervently hoping that it'll come together for you. My modus operandi when faced with recalcitrants is often to retire to dignified silence until re-motivated (which can take weeks; look around my shop) or to drop the whole thing in disgust.

 

Hmmm... well, being the father of 3 children and 2 stepchildren, oldest 33 and youngest 16, and a divorce that took 10 years and alimony just ended on 3/31, plus working with computers for 35 years, I think I've learned a thing or 2 about patience and perseverence.  It comes in handy.  But believe me, I don't hold back on the 4 letter words when their use is "required". 

One question:   I was taking a break from the tractor to "enjoy" doing my taxes, now taking a break from the taxes to curse at the tractor instead.  I noticed that on the old pump, the control arm has an internal spring that returns it to the position closest to the pulley when released.  The "new" pump doesn't do this - the arm just freely moves back and forth, and stays where I leave it.  That kinda sounds like something isn't right inside this pump also, doesn't it?

[Handy Don 12,235]

5 hours ago, davem1111 said:

 

Hmmm... well, being the father of 3 children and 2 stepchildren, oldest 33 and youngest 16, and a divorce that took 10 years and alimony just ended on 3/31, plus working with computers for 35 years, I think I've learned a thing or 2 about patience and perseverence.  It comes in handy.  But believe me, I don't hold back on the 4 letter words when their use is "required". 

One question:   I was taking a break from the tractor to "enjoy" doing my taxes, now taking a break from the taxes to curse at the tractor instead.  I noticed that on the old pump, the control arm has an internal spring that returns it to the position closest to the pulley when released.  The "new" pump doesn't do this - the arm just freely moves back and forth, and stays where I leave it.  That kinda sounds like something isn't right inside this pump also, doesn't it?

Being a parent does require learning patience. 

 

Neither the 700 nor the 1100 that I touched had an internal spring for the control arm. The only reason I can think for having one is to keep the control arm tight against the slot in the control cam as the slot gets worn--that's a pretty slim reason. As for "freely" moving back and forth, it should feel like there is something internal being moved by the control arm motion but yes, there should be no significant resistance across its range of motion. Plus, in my memory, having the lever moved to the right (toward to the input pulley) is reverse, isn't it?

 

I have a wonderful wife who finished our taxes last week. I'm only the research assistant.

 

Looking forward to hearing how the oil transfusion proceeds.

Don

Edited April 11, 2022 by Handy Don

[davem1111 2,030]

39 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Being a parent does require learning patience. 

 

Neither the 700 nor the 1100 that I touched had an internal spring for the control arm. The only reason I can think for having one is to keep the control arm tight against the slot in the control cam as the slot gets worn--that's a pretty slim reason. As for "freely" moving back and forth, it should feel like there is something internal being moved by the control arm motion but yes, there should be no significant resistance across its range of motion. Plus, in my memory, having the lever moved to the right (toward to the input pulley) is reverse, isn't it?

 

I have a wonderful wife who finished our taxes last week. I'm only the research assistant.

 

Looking forward to hearing how the oil transfusion proceeds.

Don

 

I appreciate all your help with this. Regarding the cam motion and forward/reverse, I'm damned if i can remember which arm position is which now that the thing is pulled apart, but I think you're right. But the spring isn't strong enough to move the arm with that cam on it, unless the cam lets it move that way. So no, I can't think of any reason for a spring to move it unless this particular pump was actually made for some other application that required that feature (other than being on a wheel horse). 

 

I too have a wonderful wife, but she's letting me take the lead on the taxes. She is asking questions and being helpful though.

 

Honestly I probably won't be doing anything else to this pump or tractor till next weekend, and if I've found another pump by then I may just let it go.  I took a gamble on this one and I may have lost, which I can accept and move on.  In the meantime though, I'm going to ask Lincoln if he can hook me up with some nice Ag's for the 416-8.  I want to put the snow blade on that guy next winter.  I think plowing may have been what killed my original pump on the 312-A.  Sigh.

 

[davem1111 2,030]

Since I'm hoping to try re-priming this Eaton 700 with fresh oil this weekend, and re-mounting & testing it, I thought I'd double back on the "oil" question.  I've seen lots of comments in several other threads here, and it sounds like there are a lot of options.   I think I'll probably go with 10w30 synthetic (which I'll need to buy), but looking around I noticed that I have some SAE 30 "Diesel Engine Oil", and some "Conventional SAE 30".  I believe I bought both of those when I borrowed my neighbor's Ford Jubilee last summer to do some brush hogging, and it was leaking oil.  I have both the 312-A and a 416-8, and I'm thinking that those oils would be "okay" to use in either engine or in the hydro, but thought I'd ask for opinions on that.  I used to have a Ford 8N, and I think they called for "Non-detergent 30w", but don't know if that's yet again something different.

 

Also, I noticed that the shifter boot was shot on the 416-8 (new one coming next week), and looking closer noticed a bit of milky looking oil so I'm guessing that there's water in that trans so it needs a drain/flush/refill.  I've seen mention of using diesel fuel as a flush, but I don't have any around and wondered what other options might work.  Mineral spirits?  Paint thinner?   And while I'm on transaxles, is the axle on the 312-A supposed to contain 90w gear oil, since it's isolated from the hydro?   Mine looks like 30w when I spin the gear with the hydro out,  i.e. looks too light weight to be 90w.  Looks like a drain and re-fill on that one also, if so.  Don't think it needs a flush - oil looks quite healthy even if the wrong weight.   

 

Thoughts?  

[davem1111 2,030]

Good news!    With the pump upside-down and the reservoir on but closed,  I gradually filled the pump with 10w30 Synthetic.  I turned the pulley and the gear every now and then, and it would take some more oil, until it seemed full and wouldn't take any more.  Re-assembled everything (well, pump, gas tank, and wheels), and fired her up. Started moving right away when I engaged the drive belt. Once I got the neutral adjustment set properly, she was moving forward and backward just fine.  Put the rest back together and put the deck on.  Mowed a small bit of yard, trans working great!    Now I need to fix a problem with the deck height setting that seems to be even worse now. The handle won't stay in position other than way up or all the way down.

 

In the meantime,  I bought new oil for the 416-8 trans but I can't get the hex drain plug to come out, or the square fill plug.  At this point I'm guessing that I will need to remove the whole transaxle from the tractor to get it drained.  I tried heating both plugs with a small torch, but don't really want to start a fire.   Any ideas on this?