K321 and 2 condensers

[Mustang67ford 234]

I found my K321 has 2 condensers on it.  Both are connected to the + side of the coil.  There is no condenser on the - side.  Is this another way to hook it up as opposed to a single condenser on the - side?

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, Mustang67ford said:

I found my K321 has 2 condensers on it.  Both are connected to the + side of the coil.  There is no condenser on the - side.  Is this another way to hook it up as opposed to a single condenser on the - side?

 

No, that ain't right.

 

The condenser needs to be on the (-) side.  It won't do anything on the (+) side.  There are several reasons for the condenser, and one of them is to prevent excessive arcing on the points.  With it on the (+) side it won't help the points at all.

 

You probably also had a weak spark.

 

Did it run?  Well?

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Mustang67ford 234]

6 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

No, that ain't right.

 

The condenser needs to be on the (-) side.  It won't do anything on the (+) side.  There are several reasons for the condenser, and one of them is to prevent excessive arcing on the points.  With it on the (+) side it won't help the points at all.

 

You probably also had a weak spark.

 

Did it run?  Well?

 

 

Correct, i know how it is suposed to be and purpose of the condenser.  Funny thing is it runs fine and that is why I figured I would question it before I go and make changes.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[ranger 1,750]

It hasn’t been fitted with an electronic ‘trigger’ unit in place of the points has it? Or has the coil been connected as a + ground?

[Mustang67ford 234]

10 minutes ago, ranger said:

It hasn’t been fitted with an electronic ‘trigger’ unit in place of the points has it? Or has the coil been connected as a + ground?

Dont know.  I need to open the points cover and have a look, not sure.  Same thing for the coil + and -.  Here is a pic as well.

[953 nut 55,228]

9 hours ago, Mustang67ford said:

I found my K321 has 2 condensers on it.  Both are connected to the + side of the coil.  There is no condenser on the - side.  Is this another way to hook it up as opposed to a single condenser on the - side?

Just another Previous Owner modification the makes you wonder            "what the heck was going on in their life at the time they did this."

[ranger 1,750]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Just another Previous Owner modification the makes you wonder            "what the heck was going on in their life at the time they did this."

Maybe he fitted them for suppression. Perhaps the ignition system interfered with his hearing aid, or Wheelhorse Radio! 🤔😂

[oliver2-44 9,749]

Is it possible wired backwards with the + side of the coil going to the points.

[Mustang67ford 234]

Spoke to the shop that worked on the tractor.  He said the points would arc a good bit, threw a large blue arc with one condenser.  He added a 2nd condencer to bring the arcing under control.  I could see why the condencer didnt work if it was on the + side, but why would adding a 2nd one resolve it if still on the + side.  He said its been this way for 10+ years.  Still not sure what is going on unless the coil was changed and condensers were improperly reconnected.  Will be looking into it further.

[JoeM 7,874]

Not to sure either + or - connected condenser would make to much difference. It would still be in the circuit that needs to have the energy collected as the field collapses. Two condensers would absorb more energy. 

 

 

[Mustang67ford 234]

Determined the 2 condensers are indeed connected to the negative side.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[953 nut 55,228]

5 hours ago, Mustang67ford said:

He said the points would arc a good bit, threw a large blue arc with one condenser.

The ignition coil on a Kohler engine has an internal resistor. If a non-resistor coil were used the voltage seen as the points open would be twice what it should be. Is there a part number on the coil?

[briankd 817]

when i bought my c 120 it had 2 condenser's  on it as well I put new points and condenser and also replaced the coil and didn't put the second one back on and it is fine

[ranger 1,750]

22 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

The ignition coil on a Kohler engine has an internal resistor. If a non-resistor coil were used the voltage seen as the points open would be twice what it should be. Is there a part number on the coil?

That certainly sounds like a ballast resisted, (perhaps for electronic ignition system), coil being used without a resistor.

[Mustang67ford 234]

23 hours ago, 953 nut said:

The ignition coil on a Kohler engine has an internal resistor. If a non-resistor coil were used the voltage seen as the points open would be twice what it should be. Is there a part number on the coil?

Don't see a part number unless it is under the mounting strap.  On the top there is an imbossed 1 in a circle.

[pfrederi 17,739]

Use you ohm meter check resistance between the + an - terminals what do you get? 2-3 ohms or 5-6???

[Handy Don 12,218]

2 hours ago, Mustang67ford said:

On the top there is an imbossed 1 in a circle.

That may be the label of the "negative" terminal. If so, there will be a plus sign near the other terminal. Or, it could be a simple mold number!

[Mustang67ford 234]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

That may be the label of the "negative" terminal. If so, there will be a plus sign near the other terminal. Or, it could be a simple mold number!

+ and - are labeled, its a different marking.

[Mustang67ford 234]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Use you ohm meter check resistance between the + an - terminals what do you get? 2-3 ohms or 5-6???

Will get it checked and report back.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[Mustang67ford 234]

22 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Use you ohm meter check resistance between the + an - terminals what do you get? 2-3 ohms or 5-6???

3.5 ohms with the + and - disconnected.

[953 nut 55,228]

What that tells us is that the ignition coil doesn't have an internal resistor. You can buy an external ignition resistor at any auto parts store for less than ten dollars. Run the wire from your ignition switch to one terminal of the resistor and the other to the coil "+" terminal.

[Mustang67ford 234]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

What that tells us is that the ignition coil doesn't have an internal resistor. You can buy an external ignition resistor at any auto parts store for less than ten dollars. Run the wire from your ignition switch to one terminal of the resistor and the other to the coil "+" terminal.

When I look the coil up, the replacement resisted coil appears to be 3 ohms and another quote I had found notes 3.5 ohms.  Based on this, I am kind of thinking I do have a coil with an internal resistor, but I could be wrong.

 

https://isavetractors.com/ignition-coil-for-kohler-k-series-engines-battery-ignition/

 

 "If a 12-14 VDC battery ignition system doesn't have an external ballast resistor, then there is a resistance wire of 3-3.5 Ohms internal inside the coil. Using a non internal resistance coil and no ballast resistor will burn up the breaker points in a short time due to excessive voltage passing thru them."

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Mustang67ford

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

29 minutes ago, Mustang67ford said:

due to excessive voltage passing thru them.

 

I believe that should read excessive CURRENT.

 

Just sayin', cuz I'm a pedantic PITA.

 

[953 nut 55,228]

11 hours ago, Mustang67ford said:

When I look the coil up, the replacement resisted coil appears to be 3 ohms and another quote I had found notes 3.5 ohms.  Based on this, I am kind of thinking I do have a coil with an internal resistor, but I could be wrong.

I stand corrected, there was a member named @Save Old Iron that was a wonderful source of electrical information. Here is a post he did on ignition coil resistance. Start with post #6.

 

[Mustang67ford 234]

7 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I stand corrected, there was a member named @Save Old Iron that was a wonderful source of electrical information. Here is a post he did on ignition coil resistance. Start with post #6.

 

No problem, thanks for the info and help.