Pole Barn

[kwalshy 229]

So I've been thinking about having a metal pole barn built for a very long time.  Somewhere around a 40' x 30' x 14'  (LxWxH)  And I think this is the year I might do it.

 

Some additional info: I'd like to install at a later date a two post 10k lbs lift. I will run power and possible water to the barn.  I'd use a wood stove or propane garage heater for a heat source and since I won't be working in here on a routine/daily basis,  I'm on the cuff about insulating the metal building or not.

 

Thanks for any insight or experiences you can share.

 

 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,176]

I built my 24X32 in 2020.    I have 12' under the roof trusses with an 18X10' door.    Mine is not insulated, but I did put 3/8" foam under the roof steel to prevent indoor rain.

I added the concrete floor after it was built using the 2x10 around the base as the form.      I did taper the floor to floor drains at critical locations.  Very useful for pressure washing and working on  water cooled outboard motors.

 

[stevasaurus 22,740]

My Dad has a huge pole barn al least 35 x 40 with a side extension you could put 2 cars in.  He went with a dirt / #14 white stone for the floor.  He has always had trouble with critters.  If you are going to build one, I suggest a footing 3' and concrete floor.  If you just pour a slab, you will have critters tunnel under the slab.  Trust me, and it is easier to do it right the 1st time...and cheaper.  

   One or two other things, you can never have enough electrical outlets and enough lighting.   

 

[WHNJ701 4,165]

I was going to have one built last year until I found out the price doubled.  It's on hold now maybe another year or two

[lynnmor 7,306]

I have a pole building that size, trust me it will not be big enough.  I only have the thin insulation on the underside of the roof and heating it with a torpedo heater is extremely costly so I only fire it up for short periods of time while in there, wood heat requires a lot of planning and is not practical unless doing day long occupancy.   I do have insulated doors, do not get the one panel of sheet metal type.  I do have other garages to use for extensive projects.

[WHX?? 48,815]

1 hour ago, lynnmor said:

I have a pole building that size, trust me it will not be big enough. 

But i hate to see anything sit outside even parts tractors.

I am looking to do a 40x50 with 9 or 10 ft side walls or so.  to see what the boys have to say.

 As Jabel said prices have more than doubled here. Bad news is I don't think they are going back down.

My biggest problem is finding  some one to rough it up then finnish myself. Amish are my best bet as far as price but they are claiming they are booked till 2023. Hopeing a couple cases of beer will change their minds. 

Just to clear things up Kwalshy are you talking a lumber framed pole shed or a pre fab metal structure in kit form or a real steel structural building.?  

 

BTW @stevasaurus   calendar shot right there! 

[Pullstart 62,883]

You’ll need at least 12’ for a two post lift, but if you’re going with 14’, 16’ is a good height for pallet racking…

 

insulation?  YES!  Get as much as you can, preferably the 6” insulation batting at minimum.  You’ll appreciate that later 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pullstart

[WHX?? 48,815]

33 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

insulation?  YES!  Get as much as you can, preferably the 6” insulation batting at minimum.  You’ll appreciate that later 

That's why I asked exactly what kind of building Kev. If I was to do a lumber post frame like yours I would close off the attic area, ventilate it well and spray foam the the areas he wants to heat. Minimum of 14 ft side wall  if he wants to put in a lift. 

43 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

16’ is a good height for pallet racking…

Yer on yer own ther ... time comes for having  that much crap is either a big dumpster, an auction  or a trip to the scrap yard.... just sayin......

[squonk 41,118]

Insulate! Not only will it be more comfortable but if you're running a compressor or an air hammer your ears will thank you. If your wife fills it up with crafts you can skip the sound absorption part of the insulation. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by squonk

[WHX?? 48,815]

47 minutes ago, squonk said:

Insulate! Not only will it be more comfortable but if you're running a compressor or an air hammer your ears will thank you. If your wife fills it up with crafts you can skip the sound absorption part of the insulation. 

Agreed  on the insulation Squonky even if it's part time heated. Unagreeded on the wifey puts her crap in it ..let her fork out on the bill since you ain't got the stones to lay the law down! 

 

Figure on a unit heater dude your to best bet to shut it down and operate it at will. Another thing is do you plan to commercial work in here or just messin around with yer stuff?  Lots of factors here on what tell you is best. You need to tell us.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by WHX??

[JimSraj 429]

Insulate as best you can. You will use the building a lot more if you can heat it and keep the heat your pouring in. Heating with wood or propane in a building that size is gonna take a while to get up to any noticeable difference when it’s 20 degrees outside, or even 30 for that matter unless you keep the fire burning round the clock and pump it up when you’re gonna be in there. 

If you do decide not to insulate, at least use the metal roofing with the felt coated underside. It works well to stop the condensation drips on the inside. 

[Achto 27,577]

I would consider bumping the size up to 51'x30'  and then dividing it in half. Insolate 25x30 for your heated work shop and leave the rest for cold storage. Just one suggestion.

 

The odd ball 51' makes the outside sheeting come out better, every thing divisible by 3'. In Wisconsin, pole building poles and trusses are set 9' on center so most contractors try to make the length divisible by 9 when practical.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Achto

[rmaynard 15,460]

When I had my pole building built in March of 2020, I had contracted the job in November of 2019. Had I waited until later in 2020 to start the process, prices would have been almost 50% higher. Due to Covid, construction would not have begun until probably summer. A friend recently told me that he contacted my same builder and that a comparable size build now is double what I paid. Having said that, my experience with the building has taught me several lessons. Always build it at least twice as large as you originally planned. Insulate at least the ceiling. I did both the ceiling and the walls with 5/16" bubble roll. Not so much for heating, but for elimination of condensation. Have additional beams across the ceiling area to attach chain hoists and other lifting devices. Be sure that the overhead door rolls up and does not go up and lay flat over your head like a conventional garage door. It blocks light and air from overhead fans, and takes away a lot of usable overhead storage space.. Be sure that your doors are wide. I have an 18' wall with a 10' wide door. I wish it were wider. I ran 40 amp electrical service, but not water. I'm close enough that a hose will reach when I need it. Allow provisions for some type of heat. When it's warm out and you have 3 fans running to keep you cool, it's hard to imagine that just several months later the building will be unbearably cold. 

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[kwalshy 229]

Thanks for all the feedback and "Do this" and "Don't do that".   

 

It seems that insulating the entire structure is the way to go with a lot of folks here saying insulation is a must.

I received quotes with options for R-21batt on walls and R-38 batt/blow in over ceiling panels.

 

I agree with recommendations for a roll up door, not the conventional overhead garage door.

 

WHX?? - I am looking at a lumber framed pole structure with metal panels attached to the lumber frame.    

 

Achto - good point on the building size matching how they typically build on distance between columns & exterior wall panel size.  

 

I've contacted the following builders here in Northeast Pa.   

https://www.cedarvalleypf.com/

https://pioneerpolebuildings.com/

https://www.shirkpolebuildings.com/

[WHX?? 48,815]

1 hour ago, kwalshy said:

WHX?? - I am looking at a lumber framed pole structure with metal panels attached to the lumber frame.    

 

Achto - good point on the building size matching how they typically build on distance between columns & exterior wall panel size.  

Excellent then Dan's point applies so 51x 36 or 48 x 30 etc. I'm sure the builder can coach you on that. The ones you posted look to be legit. 

Guessing concrete floor so plan ahead for footing for lifts if needed. 

Plan way ahead for other things as well. Extra conduits in thru floor to dirt for future utilities,  water, power, backing in the ceiling for hanging deer, cable for that shop TV .....

 

Just for grins here is a pole building design tool. 

https://designit.menards.com/RPF-v2/#/landing

Looks like they have a few stores in western PA.

Somewhere in there is a cool little tool where you can place trucks & boats & tractors & toys in a floor plan to see how much space you need. Or in other words to see much bigger you need to go than you can afford! 

 

Like Jim below said under slab  foam is never a bad idea. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by WHX??
speeling

[JimSraj 429]

Definitely include a vapor barrier under the slab. If you are planning on spending a lot of time in this building in the winter you might want to consider under slab insulation as well.

[kwalshy 229]

2 hours ago, WHX?? said:

 

 

Just for grins here is a pole building design tool. 

https://designit.menards.com/RPF-v2/#/landing

Looks like they have a few stores in western PA.

Somewhere in there is a cool little tool where you can place trucks & boats & tractors & toys in a floor plan to see how much space you need. Or in other words to see much bigger you need to go than you can afford! 

 

 

 

 

That is a slick tool.  Thanks for sharing!  

[Pullstart 62,883]

If heating regularity and poured floors are going to be a thing, might I suggest in-floor pex piping?  It’s not terribly difficult or expensive to do and you only get one shot.  If you know you’re going to install a lift, give yourself a well thought out plan to where machine anchors will go and map that out well in the planning stages.  If you ever decide to use it, it’ll just be completing the system above ground.  If you ever sell, that’ll be a HUGE selling point.

[WHX?? 48,815]

50 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

might I suggest in-floor pex piping?

 

I got out of the habit of suggesting that Kev.  In a shop I am just a unit heater kind of guy. Too much of a hassle if just want to shut the heat off and go to Florida for a week. Seen too many bozos just shut it off then it freezes. DUH  Or you run out of PROPANE.... ahem.... Even with the devil's advocate called anti freeze in it still have problems. Can't  set it back a whole lot or takes a long time to recover. 

Only nice things is you work on the floor alot or the missus puts you out there for good ya got it made. 

Still yah you can't do it later so many guys put the tubing down for future or they win the lotto so not the worst idea.  1/2" barrier pex 12" on centers throughout. 

1200 square ft. shop a nice little 60-70K btu heater will do just fine and be my go to. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by WHX??
speeling

[Handy Don 12,232]

45 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

If heating regularity and poured floors are going to be a thing, might I suggest in-floor pex piping?  It’s not terribly difficult or expensive to do and you only get one shot.  If you know you’re going to install a lift, give yourself a well thought out plan to where machine anchors will go and map that out well in the planning stages.  If you ever decide to use it, it’ll just be completing the system above ground.  If you ever sell, that’ll be a HUGE selling point.

Seconded and endorsing research. Lots of variables beyond location of the tubing to avoid drilling it for machinery installs: insulation, number of loops and locations of headers (to permit zoning), slab sizes and break lines (all concrete floors crack so you want joints so it cracks where you choose and avoid crossing joints with the pex), source of heat (gas, oil, wood, solar, hybrid?), controls, freeze protections for exposed plumbing, etc.

The plumbers I know that install it take tons of photos with tape measures in the shots to show where the tube runs are before they pour or install the insulation.

I put an electric heated floor into a bathroom gut renovation and it was totally worth the effort (though it sure didn't seem so at the time)!

[WHX?? 48,815]

16 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

take tons of photos with tape measures in the shots

Old skool

New skool you wanna know where them tubes are. 

[Pullstart 62,883]

I’d also suggest 5/8” pex.  Sorry Uncle Jim   Maximum run of 300’ and easy to work with still.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,560]

Agree with @WHX?? ()… piping = way too much much “stuff” to deal with in an out building… put in a heater and call it a day… drill future stuff in the floor wherever you want…

 

[WHX?? 48,815]

Lol ...correct Slyvia but I do offer the tubing only on quotes of this kind of build. 'Sides I have all the professional tools to do it and I put more bacon on the table.  More than a few times I have had customers said they wished they would have done it. Turns out they use the building more than they thought they would. Plus now they want to invest in outdoor wood.  Wood workers love it as no dust blowing around. Most of the pole style sheds I do are huge tho... 80 x 50 was the last one. 

Used to be able to figure about a buck 35 per square ft labor inc. just to put the tubing in. No idea what it is now what with price hikes. I still like my unit heaters tho, flip the switch and 15 minutes it's 60 in there. Thermostats that can go down to 34 to keep paint & stuff from freezing and still keep a handle on fuel costs. 

5/8 is an oddball size here Kev no vendors stock it much less the fittings. That and even 3/4 is more reserved for industrial shops. With the circulators out ther these days I can easily move enough gpm through 10  300 ft loops of 1/2. It's all a matter of design and cruching numbers. 

Hope we're not going to far Kwalsky. Let us know if so I'll  be happy to straiten the others out....

Edited March 2, 2022 by WHX??

[wallfish 17,000]

2 hours ago, WHX?? said:

New skool you wanna know where them tubes are. 

Ha, I've had plenty of people try to mark them like that! Homeowners to professionals. Thermal imaging, thermal tester, dividing rods you name it. It's more deadly accurate finding those tubes with a core drill! Seems no matter how many lines they draw on the floor or however they try and determine their location, the core drill will find'm. I've drilled into a dozen or more tubes when they're supposedly CLEARLY marked out exactly where those tubes are so I can avoid drilling into them. LoL

I stopped marking them myself a while ago so I'm not responsible anymore. Yes, I will repair them if I hit them but I'm being paid extra for that time now instead of eating it.

Edited March 2, 2022 by wallfish