Front spindle mod on C-160 for FEL

[Sailman 1,291]

Looking to beef up the the front spindles on my C-160 for a FEL and the OEM upgrade that came with loaders appears to be unobtaineum...Ran across this video from "I save tractors" that looks to be a great conversion. Here is the link to the video https://www.loaderplans.com/spindle-upgrade

He is doing it on a cub cadet but the idea of mounting 1 inch spindle over the 3/4 spindle seems brilliant. Any one try this yet or what are your thoughts about this being a viable option?

Appreciate all comments....

[jeepdan 321]

A few members have done this. That's how I got the idea.

Just finishing these up. 1 1/16" "short hub" trailer spindles welded over a NOS pair of Wheel Horse 3/4" spindles. These are going to be used on a 312-8, sporting 8" wheels.

Can't figure out yet, how to machine a seat on the steering arm plates, in order true them up to accept roller thrust bearings like on the 520's

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by jeepdan

[oliver2-44 9,759]

While what isavetractors is showing will get  you a heavier hub and bearings it really doesn't add much/any strength to the actual spindle since it just slips on.  If you added the welded brace in the "90" like JeepDan did since that is the true weak point and added the slip on for larger bearings that would be a good improvement.  I really think if you did that brace on the "90" and went to needle bearings on you 3/4 spindles as @Snoopy11 and some have begun to use, it would be a reasonable good loader setup. 

PS I recently learned you can easily take a front axle from a J. Deere. 200,300 & maybe others  that has factory 1" spindles, quickly paint it red, no one will know the difference.  

[wallfish 17,011]

2 hours ago, jeepdan said:

Can't figure out yet, how to machine a seat on the steering arm plates, in order true them up to accept roller thrust bearings like on the 520's

Can you remove material from the top of the axle? About the same thickness as the roller thrust bearing and washers. There's plenty of extra meat there. That will leave the surfaces flat for the thrust bearing and also allow enough of the spindle out of the top for the retaining clip. The top of the axle doesn't necessarily need to be as true since nothing is riding on it.

[jeepdan 321]

17 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Can you remove material from the top of the axle? About the same thickness as the roller thrust bearing and washers. There's plenty of extra meat there. That will leave the surfaces flat for the thrust bearing and also allow enough of the spindle out of the top for the retaining clip. The top of the axle doesn't necessarily need to be as true since nothing is riding on it.

I was planning on counterboring the bottom area of the axle to make room for the thickness of the trust bearing and it's two washers like the 520 swept axle.

My problem is that the plate steel steering arms aren't welded onto the kingpins an accurate 90 degrees which would prevent full contact with all or most of the thrust bearing needles.

So, was Wheel Horse more careful with welding up the 520 spindles made for thrust bearings? Or, am I overthinking things?

[kpinnc 12,083]

2 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

PS I recently learned you can easily take a front axle from a J. Deere. 200,300 & maybe others  that has factory 1" spindles, quickly paint it red, no one will know the difference.  

 

You can do it, but I wouldn't say "easily". You will need a spacer on the axle pivot. The JD axle pivot is much more narrow- by about an inch. Additionally, you'll have to fab up new arms on the spindles, because the JD drag link runs across the front of the axle as opposed to Wheel Horse being on the backside.

 

Ask me how I know...

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by kpinnc

[ri702bill 8,328]

6 hours ago, jeepdan said:

I was planning on counterboring the bottom area of the axle to make room for the thickness of the trust bearing and it's two washers like the 520 swept axle.

My problem is that the plate steel steering arms aren't welded onto the kingpins an accurate 90 degrees which would prevent full contact with all or most of the thrust bearing needles.

So, was Wheel Horse more careful with welding up the 520 spindles made for thrust bearings? Or, am I overthinking things?

And that is why I use a thrust washer, not a roller bearing when I rework an axle for bushings. I fly cut material off the BOTTOM of the axle - this also ensures that the washer sits flat and perpendicular to the machined bore. No issues so far ....

Bill

[mrc 812]

pm sent

[wallfish 17,011]

2 hours ago, ri702bill said:

And that is why I use a thrust washer, not a roller bearing when I rework an axle for bushings. I fly cut material off the BOTTOM of the axle - this also ensures that the washer sits flat and perpendicular to the machined bore.

Do you also find the steering arms not welded 90 deg to the kingpins? I was assuming those 2 surfaces would be true.

If there's a smaller contact area between the steering arm and axle surfaces that would create a stiffer steering problem. Maybe that's why some people report their tractor steers hard while everything "appears" normal.

[peter lena 8,634]

@Sailman  what ever you do , make sure you use a lubricant that will stand up to anything you can throw at it.   , https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lucas-Oil-Xtra-Heavy-Duty-Grease-Green-14-5-oz/36052505?=pla-2_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds   hi temp , 560 deg , anti sling , polyurea rated , READ THE SPECS, solid smoothness,  keep it greasy , pete

[Sailman 1,291]

I was considering adding the 1 inch spindle over the 3/4 spindle, welding it to the L shaped spindle and then adding a triangle piece of steel or extra metal like @jeepdan did welded over the L shape to give it extra strength. Looks like it would be as strong as the OEM product that was sold with the wheel horse FEL. Sound right?

[wallfish 17,011]

43 minutes ago, Sailman said:

Sound right?

Yes

[Lee1977 6,664]

Here is what I did to reinforce some spindles on a 312 original for 6" wheels.  No FEL I just raised the tractor a couple of inches.

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[ri702bill 8,328]

9 hours ago, wallfish said:

Do you also find the steering arms not welded 90 deg to the kingpins? I was assuming those 2 surfaces would be true

@wallfish Yes, indeed - for the most part they are as they say "Close, but no cigar!" I wish I had a lathe with a larger bed clearance so I could true up that surface on the spindle first or weld them up and recut them. It's on the wish list .....

Bill

[wallfish 17,011]

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

@wallfish Yes, indeed - for the most part they are as they say "Close, but no cigar!" I wish I had a lathe with a larger bed clearance so I could true up that surface on the spindle first or weld them up and recut them. It's on the wish list .....

Bill

Hmm, Is there something besides a big lathe that can be used to true that up? Because I don't have one either. Or even know how to use my little one very well for much either.

Like sliding mechanical tube down the kingpin with a way to sand or cut that arm surface flat with something on the end edge of the tube? A piece of a grinding disc glued to the end of the tube? Piece of lathe tooling welded to the tube? Spin the tube with a drill or ? and vice the spindle. Make a tool out of something

Just throwing spit balls for any ideas. Having both sides true sure would be best.

[Handy Don 12,235]

14 hours ago, ri702bill said:

@wallfish Yes, indeed - for the most part they are as they say "Close, but no cigar!" 

Bill

I can almost visualize the production jig used to hold the spindle and steering arm in place for welding to make a part that is simple, sturdy, and more than adequate for long life with reasonable lube and usage.

 

13 hours ago, wallfish said:

Hmm, Is there something besides a big lathe that can be used to true that up? Because I don't have one either. Or even know how to use my little one very well for much either.

Like sliding mechanical tube down the kingpin with a way to sand or cut that arm surface flat with something on the end edge of the tube? A piece of a grinding disc glued to the end of the tube? Piece of lathe tooling welded to the tube? Spin the tube with a drill or ? and vice the spindle. Make a tool out of something

Just throwing spit balls for any ideas. Having both sides true sure would be best.

Cool idea. One with a hollow for going over the spindle to get the top of the steering arm flat and true and another on a solid shaft to do the same to the bottom of the axle.

Maybe we need a "Wheel Horse Special Tools Rental" store?!

 

[ri702bill 8,328]

Almost like hollow core drill for concrete. All the hollow face mills I've found only have a 2-inch-deep hollow recess and are several hundred bucks alone without the drive arbor - add $150 for that.

 

I did see an interesting wear pattern on one axle bore face - a "smiley" shaped groove in the axle caused a nub of weld spatter on the spindle.

Bill

[Pullstart 62,905]

I don’t have experience yet reinforcing front spindles, but these saddle gussets are used in many race car builds.  Why not something like this?  It reinforces in so many directions.  In an extreme condition, I can see a true 90 gusset collapsing too.

 

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

6 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Almost like hollow core drill for concrete. All the hollow face mills I've found only have a 2-inch-deep hollow recess and are several hundred bucks alone without the drive arbor - add $150 for that.

 

I did see an interesting wear pattern on one axle bore face - a "smiley" shaped groove in the axle caused a nub of weld spatter on the spindle.

Bill

I guess the degree of precision one is seeking matters a lot! Yes, like a hole saw with extremely fine teeth.

I was thinking a long enough piece of DOM ¾" ID tubing and then insert a ¾" rod partly turned down to ½ or ⅜" at one end, to make it chuck-able into a hand drill or drill press, and an abrasive disk or lathe cutter welded to the other end. Make sure the spindle shaft is well lubed while it's in use.

Having the long tube and snug fit to the spindle shaft would help a lot on alignment, right?

[ri702bill 8,328]

39 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Having the long tube and snug fit to the spindle shaft would help a lot on alignment, right?

Yes, but all that surface contact could cause problems - probably better to go to 7/8" and add a bronze bushing at either end - just like the axle modification.

Bill

[wallfish 17,011]

Like the bushing idea Bill! They can be a tighter fit on the kingpin and changed out too.

Got any old tooling to cut up for making a new tool?

Or, cutting resin fiber grinding disks (which aren't very expensive) into the right size washer shape to glue on the business end of the tube. Or glued right to a flanged bronze bushing if the flange size is big enough for a thrust washer. 

Would/Could an end mill tool work like that ? Llike welded to the sides of the tube and not spinning themselves and used as cutting teeth.

Spit ball

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I guess the degree of precision one is seeking matters a lot! Yes, like a hole saw with extremely fine teeth.

I was thinking a long enough piece of DOM ¾" ID tubing and then insert a ¾" rod partly turned down to ½ or ⅜" at one end, to make it chuck-able into a hand drill or drill press, and an abrasive disk or lathe cutter welded to the other end. Make sure the spindle shaft is well lubed while it's in use.

Having the long tube and snug fit to the spindle shaft would help a lot on alignment, right?

Exactly 

 

I'm no machinist so deadly accurate precision isn't in the repertoire here but, these tractors aren't the space shuttle either. But that being said, getting those 2 surfaces true(r) sure could/would make a difference in ease of steering. Especially for the heavy front weight from a loader. I'm guessing a roller thrust bearing will also have some tolerance give as well.

 

 

 

[ri702bill 8,328]

End mill are hardened tool steel and do not readily take to welding - plus the heat would take the temper out. Maybe precision depth pockets to hold them - endmills usually have a flat on the side - kind of like bullets in a 6 shooter??

[Handy Don 12,235]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

I'm guessing a roller thrust bearing will also have some tolerance give as well.

I have thrust bearings on my 520 chassis and it makes a huge difference.

 

43 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

End mill are hardened tool steel and do not readily take to welding - plus the heat would take the temper out. Maybe precision depth pockets to hold them - endmills usually have a flat on the side - kind of like bullets in a 6 shooter??

Neat idea!

Really enjoying this thread with the brainstorming. I'm sure a drill-chuckable tool for this with moderate precision would be very in demand! Set up shop at the BS?!

[wallfish 17,011]

Maybe this could work and it's not expensive? (if the 3/4 spindle fits into the 3/4 bore)

https://www.msdiscounttool.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4255&products_id=112529

Shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a way to spin it. Use it on both surfaces to counter sink a roller thrust bearing in there.

[wallfish 17,011]

I ordered the 3/4" x 1-1/2" HSS Hollow Mill and some roller thrust bearings.

I'm thinking the bore needs to be ground out to fit on the spindles as .75 and .75 won't fit

I'll figure out how to spin it once it arrives. Maybe I can chuck it up in my small lathe and hold the spindle with the milling attachment thingy

New bushings in the axle plus a 3/4 rod and the axle surface can be done too

We'll see how it goes