PTO Clutch Snow Blower Failure

[TonyBer 71]

I was the person a few weeks ago that had to add a few threads on the PTO lever to get the clutch to engage in snow.  Seemed to work fine unit today.  Well I worked the machine fairly hard today in Pittsburgh and experienced PTO failure.  Four driveways later I noticed the assembly damage and then the belt damage and it was extremely hot.  FYI on Pictures...the first picture was from a few weeks ago and people on the forum said the belt goes on outside small pulley.  When the damage happened today the belt was on the proper smaller outside pulley.  I noticed after snow thrower quit working the damage done to the PTO clutch.  I did get a new clutch plate from a member here and haven't installed it yet.  Now, with the damage to the PTO, I'm gong to take it apart and see what happened.  Any ideas?   I have the cotter pin and the clip.  How much damage did I do?  Should I look at replacing the entire assembly?  Thanks!

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by TonyBer

[wallfish 17,011]

The extreme heat is most likely from the pulley bell housing slipping on the clutch material of the plate. It could also be caused by the belt slipping in the pulley but I see your groove is painted which will make that belt stick to the groove walls. Why the belt shredded is something to investigate. Change the clutch plate since you have one and it's a good idea to try and resurface the flat on pulley housing as well. The more contact surface area between the two the better it will hold. I use a belt sander to make them flat but a piece of 60 grit on a flat surface can do the same thing. Use a sharpie or marker to color the surface and the color will stay in the low spots as the high spots are sanded down. That way you can see what's going on. You can do the same with the clutch plate too. 

It's a good idea to re-grease the bearings as the heat may have boiled the old grease. After it's all back together adjusting the PTO engagement so it doesn't slip is important. It doesn't need to be crazy tight but you don't want it loose either. After doing this you will notice a considerable difference in the performance of the blower.

 

[squonk 41,150]

Looks like your outer bearing is shot. Napa # is PP204RR6. You should have torn it all down and replaced the clutch disc and inspect the bearings like I advised in your other thread.

[8ntruck 7,016]

The C shaped bracket that transfers the force from the hoop to the stub shaft in the pto bell looks a little wonky in the after picture.  Check the roll pin that holds the bracket to the hoop.

 

You will probably be replacing the bearings th the pto bell.  Look at the stub shaft while it is out.  If the C clip grooves in it are worn, replace the shaft.

 

Good luck. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

12 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

the C clip grooves in it are worn

 

@TonyBer

 

It looks like that C clip may have popped out.  I've had that happen.  When it does, the stub axle pushes in and the bracket contacts the bearing face and wears it down from the rubbing.

 

Also, it looks as if the C clip that holds the OUTER part of the bearing into the PTO pulley is missing.  The bearing appears to be 'out' also.

 

Hard to tell with the small photos though...

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[TonyBer 71]

Thank all, the same gentleman on here that sold me the clutch plate has a refurbished assembly I just bought from him.  I have the "C" clip and cotter pin but perhaps it lost the outer bearing?  I plan to have her back up and running later this week when parts arrive.  Pittsburgh supposed to get more snow later in the week.

[8ntruck 7,016]

As long as you are going to have the pto apart, take a little time and check the pivot points on the linkage between the pto handle and clutch for wear and slop.

 

Either fix what you find, or make notes for what needs to be improved once the weather warms up.

[lynnmor 7,307]

I think you cut away a lot of material from the bell with a failed hoop assembly.  If you bought a refurbished assembly there should be no need to discuss C-clips and I don't know what you call a cotter pin.  If you don't have a good hoop with the proper pins and bracket, you might be setting yourself up for another carving.  A better photo would be a help for us trying to see the problems.  Of course the current photo is good enough to see that you have about another five minutes of life in the belt.

[peter lena 8,634]

@TonyBer sounds like from what you are finding , that entire drive set up needed a redo, as you are finding , every part of that , was way past regular service .hope you get it all done, they are simple , yet very effective in their function . when they are regularly serviced  they work very easily , hope you get to enjoy that . you might even add some washers at the start of the pto lever , next to the battery . have added 3/8" or more washers and grease , takes the play out of the lever, makes it very solid and smooth . pete    

[Lee1977 6,664]

2 hours ago, TonyBer said:

Thank all, the same gentleman on here that sold me the clutch plate has a refurbished assembly I just bought from him.  I have the "C" clip and cotter pin but perhaps it lost the outer bearing?  I plan to have her back up and running later this week when parts arrive.  Pittsburgh supposed to get more snow later in the week.

You need a spiral roll pin to hold the bracket to the PTO rod  don't use a cottar pin or a regular roll pin they are not strong enough. The other thing as said above short shaft with worn groove that won't hold the c-clip, c-clip installed backwards sharp edge side should be out and a destroyed bearing. The rod bracket could be worn also. You need to check all these areas If the one your getting is used check it too. If you tighten up the PTO clutch and it doesn't work but for a very short time all these areas needs to be checked to find the problem.

[8ntruck 7,016]

@Lee1977 has a good point.  A normal spring pin from the hardware small parts drawer is only a single layer of metal.  I have run one for a short time as a 'get it running long enough to finish mowing' fix.  Long term fix, it ain't.

 

The  spiroll pin that Wheel Horse used is two layers of metal.  Last summer when I needed one, Toro still carried these pins.  If I could find a pin that is another 1/4" longer, I would be more comfortable with the way it installs.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

48 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

Long term fix, it ain't.

 

Maybe not... but I know someone (not mentioning names) who replaced the spirol with a regular roll pin....  Ohhhh, maybe five or more years ago, and it's still hanging tough.

 

 

[8ntruck 7,016]

  disclaimer, 'cause the regular spring pin is about 1/2 the strength of a spiroll pin.  Use at your own risk.

 

Truthfully, my temporary repair was in the tractor for several weeks.  Looked fine when I took it out and installed the proper spiroll pin, too.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

29 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

  disclaimer, 'cause the regular spring pin is about 1/2 the strength of a spiroll pin.  Use at your own risk.

 

Truthfully, my temporary repair was in the tractor for several weeks.  Looked fine when I took it out and installed the proper spiroll pin, too.

 

Could probably nest a smaller inside a larger too.  That might even be stronger than a single Spirol !

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Doesn't the stub axle ride directly on the hoop and thus no heavy load on the roll pin itself?  

 

I just looked at mine... there's zero tension on that roll pin when the PTO is engaged.  The hoop does in fact push directly on the end of the stub axle.  The pin only serves to guide and hold the clevis in place.

 

 I wouldn't be concerned about having to use a high strength pin there, it doesn't appear to be necessary.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[lynnmor 7,307]

1 hour ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Doesn't the stub axle ride directly on the hoop and thus no heavy load on the roll pin itself?  

 

I just looked at mine... there's zero tension on that roll pin when the PTO is engaged.  The hoop does in fact push directly on the end of the stub axle.  The pin only serves to guide and hold the clevis in place.

 

 I wouldn't be concerned about having to use a high strength pin there, it doesn't appear to be necessary.

 

 

 

I had to go down and check two of mine.  They both have the hoop riding against the shaft with the PTO engaged, both the spirol pin and the removable pin seem to be under load as well.  I’m glad that I looked, the plow tractor isn’t currently using the PTO and the removable pin was missing.  Luckily I had a spare.

[Lee1977 6,664]

13 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Doesn't the stub axle ride directly on the hoop and thus no heavy load on the roll pin itself?  

 

I just looked at mine... there's zero tension on that roll pin when the PTO is engaged.  The hoop does in fact push directly on the end of the stub axle.  The pin only serves to guide and hold the clevis in place.

 

 I wouldn't be concerned about having to use a high strength pin there, it doesn't appear to be necessary.

 

 

 

I just checked you have a different clevis on the PTO that was only used 1980 to 1984. the 300,400 and 500 series they changed back to the straight clevis with the holes line up just like the old C-series. Your have the holes off set only usedon the C-1x1 and C-1x5 series. If you look at TonyBer's Pictures you will see what I'm saying.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

12 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

see what I'm saying.

 

I do see that Lee, thanks.  

 

So on the straight clevis the pins are "loaded" then?

 

The hoop does not press the end of the stub in?

 

[TonyBer 71]

HI, this I the "Pin" that was in mine along with a C Clip barely hanging on before I realized what happened.  Is this an appropriate Pin for my PTO setup?  I included a few close pics of the PTO.  Thanks. 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by TonyBer
photos

[Lee1977 6,664]

13 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I do see that Lee, thanks.  

 

So on the straight clevis the pins are "loaded" then?

 

The hoop does not press the end of the stub in?

 

I don't think Toro changed back because the straight clevis was better. I think they did it because it was cheaper to make. I though I had one of each kind but I don't. My C-120 , 312-8 and 520-H all have the straight clevis.

I've look through the drawings on the only 300, 400  and 500 that have 8 pinions and a 1 1/8" axle are the hydros. The 400 8 speed show 1 1/8" axles but only 4 pinions on the drawing don't know how many they put in.

My guess another cost cut. Don't have a 400 and haven't seen inside there 8 speed transmission.

[Lee1977 6,664]

24 minutes ago, TonyBer said:

HI, this I the "Pin" that was in mine along with a C Clip barely hanging on before I realized what happened.  Is this an appropriate Pin for my PTO setup?  I included a few close pics of the PTO.  Thanks. 

 

 

 

Yes that's the right pin to the short shaft. The spiral pin holds the clevis to the PTO loop.. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Lee1977

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

8 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

The spiral pin hold the clevis to the PTO loop.. 

 

And from what I can see it appears that spirol pin is damaged.  It doesn't look as if the pin goes all the way through and the clevis is 'hanging' on one side.

 

 

I think I can see 'daylight' through the other hole where the pin should be.  Either that spirol pin broke, or got worn all the way down somehow.

 

 

So even if you install the new PTO assembly, you're going to have to repair that hoop and clevis also.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

@TonyBer

 

That C clip you've shown is the one that holds the bearing into the end of the 'bell'.

 

There's another C clip on the small stub that sticks out of the center of the bearing that prevents that stub from going INTO the bearing.

That small clip often 'pops' out of the groove in the stub.  That may be what caused your issue.

 

 

[TonyBer 71]

3 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

And from what I can see it appears that spirol pin is damaged.  It doesn't look as if the pin goes all the way through and the clevis is 'hanging' on one side.

 

 

I think I can see 'daylight' through the other hole where the pin should be.  Either that spirol pin broke, or got worn all the way down somehow.

 

 

So even if you install the new PTO assembly, you're going to have to repair that hoop and clevis also.

 

 

Are you calling the Spiral Pin / Clevis same thing?  Are you thinking I need to replace the hoop and pin...anything else?

 

[Lee1977 6,664]

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

And from what I can see it appears that spirol pin is damaged.  It doesn't look as if the pin goes all the way through and the clevis is 'hanging' on one side.

 

 

I think I can see 'daylight' through the other hole where the pin should be.  Either that spirol pin broke, or got worn all the way down somehow.

 

 

So even if you install the new PTO assembly, you're going to have to repair that hoop and clevis also.

 

 

Yes it is pressing the the other pin into the end of the PTO bell.