C141 Clutch "kicking" Back

[BrianX128 107]

So this started last summer and has gotten progressively worse.. Just riding around in any gear when the clutch pedal is let out, you can hear and see the clutch pedal kick back almost as if there is a bad spot in the belt and it's "kicking" the idler pulley. If you pull back on the clutch towards you, the "kick" gets stronger.

 

I took the rear wheel off and the cover plate for the belt and expected to find a shredded or loose belt, a bearing or egg shaped idler pulley hole, or literally anything wrong. Somehow everything looks perfectly normal. No strange wear on the engine pulley either and it will do it with or without the pressure of the clutch on the thrust bearing in the engine. You don't feel the "kick" impact the mower through the transmission either, even in low gear or at low rpm you are still moving constant speed. Part of me is thinking of just trying a new belt since the one on it has been there for at least 5 years now but I'm not sure what else to check. I did think while typing this up that maybe where the idler pulley on the clutch pivots it "egged" out that hole and I didn't check for that, but everything on the clutch pedal area felt solid.

 

I also thought while typing this, that belt was for when this mower had it's original K series engine on it, when that blew up 15 years ago the belt was new so I kept it in case I ever decided to fix it, and now it has a Magnum 14 so maybe the center of the pulley is slightly further back towards the transmission and the belt is loose and slapping? I'll take a picture tonight if I get time to look at it when I get home from work.

Edited January 31, 2022 by BrianX128

[oldlineman 1,482]

I would try a new belt and check the idler pulley bearing very well. Also check the condition of the clutch spring. Bob  

Edited January 31, 2022 by oldlineman

[Ed Kennell 38,632]

Check the Vee pulleys on the engine and the transmission for an object wedged deep in the groove.

[Handy Don 12,444]

2 hours ago, BrianX128 said:

So this started last summer and has gotten progressively worse.. Just riding around in any gear when the clutch pedal is let out, you can hear and see the clutch pedal kick back almost as if there is a bad spot in the belt and it's "kicking" the idler pulley. If you pull back on the clutch towards you, the "kick" gets stronger.

 

But to me, this sounds to me like one of the pulleys has been "dented" so that the belt is not at the same "depth" all the way around. I'd check the idler/clutch and transaxle pulleys in particular. It could also be the engine pulley--I'm pretty sure those are forged so they don't dent easily but they can (very rarely) chip or break.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Handy Don

[BrianX128 107]

Thanks for the suggestions, will check tonight. 82" 5/8th belt for single cylinder K series manual trans drive, correct? I swear I remember looking that up before.

[BrianX128 107]

So I'm now more confused than I was before I started taking things apart again.

 

 

Clearly the idler pulley bearing is shot, I don't remember it being so bad but I also looked at this the last time with music blaring and I don't think I heard the noise. That pulley had some side to side play and felt like sand paper. So I didn't have another one that was the same size but I had one that was somewhat close and brand new so I tossed that on and a lot of the drive train noise got a lot better but it still is "kicking" back.

 

 

I started feeling around for dents in any of the pulleys, I can't find anything. I stared into them where the belt wasn't touching with a light to see if I could see anything as they rotated and felt around them with the belt off and if something is there I'm not finding it. I can't tell if the belt is looser than it should be, but you would think with me shoving the clutch as tight as I can that would eliminate any chances of that being the problem..

 

I took the pto stuff all off and loosened the tension there just to see if it made any difference and that had no effect, however my clutch disk did crack in half and fall off the surface.. that feels expensive.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

45 minutes ago, BrianX128 said:

that feels expensive.

 

Not sure what size your machine takes, but Brian has both the 6 and 6-3/4

 

 

How old did you say that belt was?  I would change that next.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[953 nut 55,752]

6 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

Check the Vee pulleys on the engine and the transmission for an object wedged deep in the groove.

        I had a short piece of a small tree limb get wedged in the transmission input pulley and thought the whole tractor was coming apart. Even at low RPMs the clutch bounced.

[BrianX128 107]

So hypothetical question, I cannot tell if there is a dent in my engine pulley or not. I swear it looks like there is a chip about to break out of it but I can't "feel" it but maybe the belt can at RPM. I have a spare 5 1/4 pulley for a hydro, if one were going to put that pulley on the engine what sized belt would be needed, 83? 84? I'm sure someone has done this. I'm going to possibly post on here to see if anyone has a spare 4" pulley I could buy but I want to try the larger pulley before I condemn this one and try and buy another. Also I'm going to get a regular 82" belt tonight to try and see if I can get a new idler pulley that is the correct size.

 

I wouldn't mind the increased speed of the larger pulley honestly, 2nd gear has never been that fast for mowing my larger front yard and first is useless in the back yard where the grass grows out of control, so perhaps the larger pulley wouldn't be a bad option. Plus I could zoom around in third gear and possibly have some "fun".

[oldlineman 1,482]

Have you checked the tension spring to make sure there are no issues with it, such as stretched not strong enough ect. Bob 

[BrianX128 107]

Well, I just looked in and saw it had some tension, I didn't look at it too much since if I shoved the clutch back I could still feel it "kicking" pretty hard through my hand.

[953 nut 55,752]

32 minutes ago, BrianX128 said:

I have a spare 5 1/4 pulley for a hydro,

Will your belt guard work with the larger engine pulley? Going from a 4" pulley to a 5 1/4" will yield an increase of nearly 4" of pulley circumference but since the belt would only be making contact with half the pulley surface a two inch longer belt should do. 

[oldlineman 1,482]

I would replace the belt, when you take the old one off lay it out and see if it has a small radius in it. Make sure you get a cloth covered one also. Bob

Edited February 1, 2022 by oldlineman

[Ed Kennell 38,632]

1 hour ago, BrianX128 said:

5 1/4 pulley for a hydro, if one were going to put that pulley on

You'll have to modify the belt guard.

[BrianX128 107]

4 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

You'll have to modify the belt guard.

 

So I have a belt guard from a 417a that was a hydro with a 5 1/4 pulley. Not sure without being at home if it would match up with a C series or not.

 

I'm still hopeful that replacing the original belt helps and I'll check the spring tension tonight. I just looked online and can't find a 4" pulley with the clutch mounting holes for sale anywhere so hopefully that's not what's bad. I just have a weird suspicion watching those videos I posted again in slow motion that the slap is coming from the engine pulley. I'm definitely going to try everything first before I mess with it though, that alan key set screw doesn't look like it or the pulley are going to come back off the engine in 1 piece.

Edited February 1, 2022 by BrianX128

[BrianX128 107]

Interesting development, I took this video last night and didn't even upload it because I didn't see anything worth while in the video until today. If you slow this down to .25 speed on youtube, it looks like the "engine" side of the belt has 1 or two spots that is thinner. I wonder if that is causing the belt to swing side to side a bit?

 

 

[Handy Don 12,444]

I'm not seeing a problem with the pulley. I AM seeing that the belt is varying in width and so it is going deeper and shallower into the pulley as it goes around and very likely doing the same thing at the transaxle pulley. If it was the pulley itself, it would happen on every revolution of the engine and it clearly is not.

As noted early, the effort you are putting into trying to justify a 5-year-old belt that costs ~$20 to replace is silly.

Get a new belt.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Handy Don

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

20 hours ago, BrianX128 said:

my clutch disk did crack in half and fall off the surface

 

Brian, what did you do with the clutch disk?  That's gonna throw stuff out of balance if you're running it with pieces missing.

 

4 hours ago, BrianX128 said:

causing the belt to swing side to side a bit?

 

Not saying that an out of balance clutch disk is your problem, but if you keep running it that way, it could become one.

 

Not to mention that it's potentially very dangerous!  If the rest of that clutch lining comes flying out of there at speed... you do NOT want to be hit by that!

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[BrianX128 107]

It's off entirely for now.  I'm just testing it with the engine pulley only. I ordered two new disks from Brian on here.

[BrianX128 107]

I got another video but can't upload it at the moments. A new belt did fix 75% of it, but I found the other 25% and I think it's what caused it. My transmission pulley was in so deep it was rubbing against this piece of thin vertical steel behind the pulley. I'm guessing it's a stop to keep the pulley from going further but I don't know how rubbing that is any better. I also noticed my belt was angled a bit "in" towards the center of the tractor. I slid the transmission pulley 3/16 towards the outside of the tractor and shimmed the idler and now it's near perfect. I just need to get a replacement idler pulley that is the right size vs the 2 5/8 one I have on there but it's working good all of the kicking is gone.

 

I'm not sure if the belt angle is due to me putting the magnum engine on the shaker plate for a K series or if those had a different plate or mount. I never saw that engine on the tractor it came from. I know putting a K series where a KT series was is a great time. Come to think of it, none of my wheel horses have the original or same type of engines on them. Oh well haha.

[peter lena 8,720]

@BrianX128  , Brian  , have you ever lubricated the outer pulley cone , NEEDLE BEARING ?  looks like a number of  service issues there , besides , drive belt and clutch unit . rusty linkage , rusty pulleys , etc . looks like a thorough going over , would discover other issues , pete 

[BrianX128 107]

16 hours ago, peter lena said:

@BrianX128  , Brian  , have you ever lubricated the outer pulley cone , NEEDLE BEARING ?  looks like a number of  service issues there , besides , drive belt and clutch unit . rusty linkage , rusty pulleys , etc . looks like a thorough going over , would discover other issues , pete 

 

You mean the pto pulley where you can take the bearing sleeve out and grease the needle bearings that ride on it? I actually have greased that part if so. I've been meaning to paint the pto pulley and tape over the belt surfaces before I do. Probably do that and get the new pto clutch from Brian installed this weekend. 

 

This thing has seen a lot of work over the years. My grandpa bought it new in 78', I'm not sure how many hours the original 14hp engine had but he put a new 16hp engine on it about 10 years after he had bought it according to my dad and put an hour meter on it, that engine had 3822 hours on the meter when it finally couldn't be bored over anymore. I put a digital meter on this magnum just so I can keep track of how many I'm throwing at it, but I have no idea how old most things are on it. I know I put new mule drive pulleys on it 5 years ago when I got the new engine for it, and I try to grease all the factory fittings and the random grease fittings he added to things at least once a month. That being said, the whole "drive" area has been taken for granted as you can see by this thread lol.

 

A lot of this thing is cobbled together because when I wanted to revive it, I found this 14hp magnum for cheap with super low hours instead of finding a K series. Of course a few months later I found a low hours K341 to frankenstein my wife a mower on an old 417A frame I also had with no engine. Once I get the pulley situation squared away I'm going to change the transmission fluid and at least pretend to clean up that wiring and grease it and call it ready for another summer. 

 

Thanks again for the help everyone.

[peter lena 8,720]

@BrianX128,  interesting past / history , yes that was the needle bearing I  was referring to, agree with the trans oil change , don,t be afraid to change it early , also jack up the front end to increase the drainage . like to do that after a nearby road driving , to warm up fluid and use use a kerosene flush out , to enhance cleaning, glad you are on track to get things done , good luck , pete 

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

4 hours ago, BrianX128 said:

clean up that wiring

 

You mean this?

 

 

Why?  What's wrong with that?  

 

 

[Southern_Secret 463]

When I got my 314-H put all back together I had a belt slapping and jumping off issue, and the culprit was humps of built up rust in the bottom of my engine pully. Once i got all that cleand out it was good to go.

 

I hope this helps you out or points you in the direction of help.