how many manufactured of the various WH models???

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

sorta curiosity question - does Red Sq have any published records  - or do they even exist from WH archives -- of how many WH tractors were produced in the different model lines -- from the early decades up to the Toro years -- but especially in the prime economic growth years of the USA and expansion of middle class america affordability  - in the 70s thru the 80's -- I see C's as well as many 300s on the "for sale" used market -- 310's the 312s etc -- which seemed like the mid line that many homeowners would have bought versus the 500s which maybe were targeted to larger property owners or even farmers  -- not making any assumptions -- just wondering. We bought a 312 in 89 ( which we still own ) when we had limited family budget but it was big and strong enough for our mower, bagger, plow, tiller, roller, etc - the bigger models with more features that were sold in 89 were out of our price range as well as being more tractor than we needed for our yard. Thanks for any insights !!!

[Roger R 448]

Would be interesting for sure

[kpinnc 12,083]

The only person I've seen with such records would be Mike Martino. He supposedly had access to some of the old records from Cecil Pond- at least through the sale of Wheel Horse in the early 70s. 

 

But I'm sure there are others out there as well, and they may have records for later periods.

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

i am thinking that trade orgnizations or specialty media organizations of the era would typically report that type info - ex: today one could likely find the corp sales and producers of any "widget" ? or product made... so likely such publications existed during those decades -- how many tractors sold of IH, cub cadets, FarmAll, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Gravely, etc -- I don't know what those names of publications or trade assoc would be but they must have existed  and perhaps likely many still exist today -- I was just wondering if any of the R.Sq "historians" had seen any historical sales info -- especially by model - just like today there are records of Dodge Rams sold versus F150's.

[JCM 9,177]

The only two models that I am aware of is the 1986  420-LSE at 200 built according to the 86 WH bulletin # 052086 and the 1990  520-8 at 225 units, source would be hearsay. Can anyone confirm this along with any other models. 

[ebinmaine 67,593]

1 hour ago, JCM said:

The only two models that I am aware of is the 1986  420-LSE at 200 built according to the 86 WH bulletin # 052086 and the 1990  520-8 at 225 units, source would be hearsay. Can anyone confirm this along with any other models. 

Agreed. 

I'd add the 1974 C160 Tecumseh engine tractors. They were not a model specifically though.  

Numbers on those are usually stated in the 200 to 300 range but I've never seen proof.   

 

 

 

[EB-80/8inPA 1,654]

11 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

sorta curiosity question - does Red Sq have any published records  - or do they even exist from WH archives -- of how many WH tractors were produced in the different model lines -- from the early decades up to the Toro years -- but especially in the prime economic growth years of the USA and expansion of middle class america affordability

What a great question!  It’ll be interesting to see what some of the old timers around here have to say about that.  A corresponding MSRP list for the various models at the time of their respective availability would be an added bonus.

[tunahead72 2,424]

@Brockport Bill  That is an excellent question.  It's been asked here before, but I don't believe anybody has ever come up with a definitive answer.  Here's one short thread for example:

Production Numbers - Wheel Horse Tractors - RedSquare Wheel Horse Forum

 

I'll toss this to Garry, he may know more at this point...  @gwest_ca

 

[EB-80/8inPA 1,654]

I forgot about tractordata.com.  They have price info, if not production data:

https://www.tractordata.com/lawn-tractors/tractor-brands/wheelhorse/wheelhorse-lawn-tractors.html

[wh500special 2,184]

Wheel Horse did keep production records of their tractors, but the information that remains has never been made public. 
 

In the early days each tractor serial number and date was recorded in a hand-written ledger.  The record keeping was apparently quite Byzantine as each unique tractor model was assigned a specific color of ink and there was no

pattern to what serial numbers were assigned to a series of machines.  So decoding the entries is cumbersome and time consuming.  
 

At some point - probably in the 1970’s when they were becoming a big company - I’m sure they modernized the record keeping.  I believe I also recall that there are several years of ledgers (late 1960’s?) missing.
 

As of the last ten years or so, Toro still had these ledgers and records in notebooks tucked on a shelf. As far as I know they’ve only ever been been viewed by one member here and I’m not sure if he saw the whole set.  And it’s not Mike M.  I’ll bump the person who saw them a PM to alert him to this thread in case he wants to add something.  But I don’t think he’s been active on here for a while.     
 

The contact the collector world had at Toro was a member of the old guard who worked for them when they were still in South Bend and who was one of a few that made the move to Bloomington, MN.  He retired a few years ago but I imagine he still makes it to the shows once in a while.  
 

Periodically, before he retired, he’d look up something for one of us on special request and provide the information.  I believe the model 754 production was one of the hard numbers he came up with and I know I talked to him about 420’s (of which there were 200 but for which they had set aside another 200 serial numbers they never issued).  He also confirmed the numbers of D250’s that were imported (1000 in 1976 and 500 each in 1978 and 1979).   And he’s where the 225 number for the 520-8’s comes from. 

 

There isn’t really a benefit for Toro to share this information or have one of their employees spend time going through it.  I suspect the best we can do is guess at what’s out there and safely assume they produced a LOT of tractors through the years.  Not many are rare and there are

so many virtually identical models it’s hard to make distinctions. 
 

Sometimes it’s easy to forget that even though they built a ton of tractors, Wheel Horse was run like a small company for many years.  They certainly didn’t have the rigidity and polish of a Deere or IH and while their products were generally pretty great, they were a little loose on some details.  
 

Ive been lucky to have had a chance to hobnob with many people “who were in the room when it happened” and every once in a while something will jog my memory to share a detail.  But I’ve no clue about any of the production records of the old tractors.  I had a plan at one time to put a bunch of this sort of thing into a book but never took the time finish it. Maybe some day.   
 

Steve 

 

 

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

love to hear that kind of history  -- any of that type info that Red Square can memorialize to their web site will be great for years to come and for future generation owners -  I was particularly interested beyond the annual or gross sales..... but in the stats of the "by model" sales over the decades  - I find that kind of data interesting - but also great insight into the appeal of the different horse models by what appealed to buyers based on planned usage. Yes of course the geographics by state are insightful as well -- thru the mid west up into Atlantic states and New England etc --- but to me the reasons why a C series of a certain era would be appealing versus a 300, 400 or 500 series, or particular horse power, or attachment capability, is also compelling to understand the evolution of the WH story -- right up to and including the years "after"  the Toro ownership and name were added -- into 90s and 2000s. thanks for writing this added info to the WH chapters - perhaps more can be added by others

[kpinnc 12,083]

12 hours ago, wh500special said:

 I had a plan at one time to put a bunch of this sort of thing into a book but never took the time finish it. Maybe some day.   
 

Steve 

 

Thanks Steve. 

 

And for clarification- It was not my intention to  imply that Martino had any special knowledge. I don't think his intent was ever to document any production, but rather just tell a story. Many people like myself look back at his book because it is the nearest thing to 'records' that we know of. For me personally, so far away from anything of historical value- his was the only name I knew of. 

 

Thanks again!

[AMC RULES 37,130]

I for one,

sure do wish we had more!  

[ebinmaine 67,593]

5 minutes ago, AMC RULES said:

I for one,

sure do wish we had more!  

You'zz gonna need a bigger magic shed!!

[AMC RULES 37,130]

More W-H knowledge.

@wh500special

Write that book!

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by AMC RULES

[Pullstart 62,905]

Not mentioned are the early models.  In Michael Martino’s book, he states that 50 lever steers were manufactured in the first two years and 500 Seniors were manufactured in the years following.

[wh500special 2,184]

3 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

Thanks Steve. 

 

And for clarification- It was not my intention to  imply that Martino had any special knowledge. I don't think his intent was ever to document any production, but rather just tell a story. Many people like myself look back at his book because it is the nearest thing to 'records' that we know of. For me personally, so far away from anything of historical value- his was the only name I knew of. 

 

Thanks again!

 

I get ya!    BTW - it's sooooo nice to see you back on here again.  It seems like you disappeared for a while.

 

Mike did a wonderful job with all three versions of his book.  i can't imagine how many hours he sunk into that endeavor.  He was fortunate enough to befriend Cecil and Betty Pond and was able to recount so many neat stories and details and share them with the rest of us. 

 

The production records - so far as we know - stayed with Toro.  So he probably didn't have much access to them.

 

WAY back in 1999 or 2000 Mike put me in contact with the gentleman in Cleveland from whom he had bought his Senior.  The guy also had a 55 RJ35 with a reel mower that became mine as a result of that contact.  Mike didn't want it as he already had one, but I remember him telling me on the phone how nice the guy was and he told me so much about each of the little details of the tractor that would soon become mine.  He nailed all of it and didn't exaggerate one iota.

 

A class act.

 

Toro has been so supportive of the collectors especially when we look back a few years.  And hardly any of us bought any new equipment from them.

 

I started writing things down several years ago with the intention of pulling it all together into a book.  It's just been one of those "someday" projects that's been easy to put off.  And as my interest in these things has waned it's been even harder to get back into it.  With the evolution of the knowledge that's been posted on this site over the last several years it's become less important to chronicle everything into one place.

 

I think we know more now- or at least we think we know more now - about the minute details of the early tractors and history than we did 20 years ago.  But I also think in the really early days (Levers, Seniors, RJ-35's) it's possible that no two consecutive tractors were built the same.  The Ponds were somewhat prone to improvising as they went and weren't really using Eli Whitney's or Henry Ford's models of standardization.

 

I forgot to mention the Seniors and Levers earlier and see Kevin added that above.  It is widely assumed that 50 Lever steer tractors were built from junkyard parts in 1946 and 1947.  I can't recall who sourced the information, but apparently someone was able to track down that Rockford clutch documented selling 50 overcenter clutch units to "E. Pond."  From this we can infer they made 50 units.

 

The Levers were completely hand built using what could be scrounged.  Some of them had flat iron steering levers.  Some had tubular.  Some had a casting with reliefs for the shift rail protrusions in the gearbox downstream of the transmissions, some didn't.  Some have grease fittings here and there, some don't.  Comparing a Lever to a similarly-priced, contemporary IH Cub makes it seem impossible they could have sold even the 50.

 

I haven't followed the Senior discussions for quite some time, but have some doubts about the production number of 500.  I think it's in the hundreds, but I suspect it's closer to 200-300.  Also, as far as I know, the oldest Wisconsin engine to be found on an existing Senior was dated to 1953.  Maybe things have changed.  But I think the RS-83 Senior production window was really late 1953 to perhaps 1955.  I think most folks say they were first born in 1948, but I think there was a gap between when the Levers stopped trickling out and actual sales of the Seniors began.

 

This is only supposition on my part though.

 

Steve

 

[kpinnc 12,083]

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

 

I get ya!    BTW - it's sooooo nice to see you back on here again.  It seems like you disappeared for a while.

 

Thanks Steve- and it's good to be back. Sometimes life throws a curve, and it takes a bit to get back! I'm glad to see so many of the "old guard" still here too! 

 

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

This is only supposition on my part though.

 

 

Just reading through what you've posted here shows quite a bit of research. I'd love to see what you've compiled over time, but I understand your position as well. It's hard to find hard documentation. If you decide to put something together, I'll certainly be one of many who would enjoy reading it.

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

when I started this thread a few days ago I wasn't sure what follow up to expect????? As an early 2021 member to the site I really had little knowledge to the horse history other than my own experience buying my 1989, 312-8.  I did however buy the book last yr and enjoyed the insights there. As I have read the commentary here I have noticed much of the info is of course as expected  -- anecdotal --- as well as from personal knowledge of RS members and horse enthusiasts. I had mentioned previously perhaps one course to chase rather than the limited info from WH or Toro is from other sources and publications -- notably, trade associations or manufacturing magazines etc of that era -- typically those type entities have national or regional sales info. From my career, I have some relationships with trade and business groups so i think i will reach out to ask how I might research historical data stats like that from decades past - - who knows where it may lead -- or not!!!! 

[ebinmaine 67,593]

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

Eli Whitney's..... models of standardization.

Always get a bit excited when I see that name. 

My maternal grandmother was a Whitney.  

The line of descent is angular to me but very interesting to me just the same.   

 

Also Interesting. VERY interesting, to see you bring up the production methods Eli should have been known for. 

Every time I hear his name it's always - guy who invented the cotton gin- rarely does he get common knowledge credit for revolutionizing a manufacturing process.  

 

 

 

2 hours ago, wh500special said:

nice to see you back on here

Agreed, although I've only been around since early '17 so I'm not familiar with a lot of the Early members.  

@wh500special and @kpinnc 

I enjoy input/posts/threads  from both of you.  

 

 

It's interesting to see what we know about the production numbers on the various models.  

 

There are many companies that have used production figures to brag about/advertise over the years. Would have been nice if Wheelhorse had done so.  

 

[Horse Newbie 7,074]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

There are many companies that have used production figures to brag about/advertise over the years. Would have been nice if Wheelhorse had done so.  

I always heard “When you’re good, you don’t have to brag”.

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

i have a lead to a Indiana Manufactuering Assn I plan to chase that apparently has been around since prior to Ponds and WH -- have no idea if it will be productive but its a start

[Horseoholic 169]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2022 at 3:18 PM, wh500special said:

Mike did a wonderful job with all three versions of his book.  i can't imagine how many hours he sunk into that endeavor.  He was fortunate enough to befriend Cecil and Betty Pond and was able to recount so many neat stories and details and share them with the rest of us.

Sorry to ask a dumb question , what book(s) are these and what do they exactly have in them ? Is it something you can purchase or download ? If they are on the history of Wheel Horse I would be interested in seeing them . Thanks.

[rmaynard 15,510]

 

This is a link to the final edition. There were two others before it.

 

Out Of The Horse's Mouth (on Amazon)

Edited February 4, 2022 by rmaynard

[Pullstart 62,905]

@wh500special

 

I’ll post a link to my thread, as to not impose on this one too much.  You mentioned the 50 Rockford clutches.  My Lever has a Senior style bellhousing and clutch.  I’m not sure if you know Ollie who I bought it from, but he speculated it was the last Lever built.  Many of the qualities of my Lever are shared with RS-83 Seniors.  Some people tell me they are hacks that people have done over the years.  I know the engine is not original, that’s all I’m aware of.  Along with the various bits of npt pipe used in the steering sectors…

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/93476-one-more-rare-bird-1947-pond-lever-steer/?tab=comments#comment-976023