Identify and explain this gearbox?

[Oldskool 6,644]

Is that a Wheel Horse refrigerator????🤣🤣🤣🤣

[ebinmaine 67,455]

4 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

 

'Zat BBT in the background???

 

 

Don

In her "owl"  formation, yes.

[Snoopy11 5,714]

1 minute ago, Oldskool said:

Is that a Wheel Horse refrigerator????🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

I am more enthused about the cup of pens and pencils...

 

Those would be in my pockets... in a heartbeat...

 

 

Don

[ebinmaine 67,455]

Just now, Oldskool said:

Is that a Wheel Horse refrigerator????🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Absoflippinlutely.  

 

They're several business cards on there from different people.

Also one from @Ed Stoller that isn't Wheel Horse specific but certainly for small engines.

 

 

 

Anybody wants to add one to the mix, mail it to me.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

In her "owl"  formation, yes.

OH God, I just 'bout busted a gut...

 

PHEW... HAH... WOW... I still can't stop laughing...

 

Don

[ebinmaine 67,455]

8 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Is that slot for a shear pin of sorts?

Dunno.... @ri702bill... ?

[ebinmaine 67,455]

1 minute ago, Snoopy11 said:

, I just 'bout busted a gut...

 

PHEW... HAH... WOW... I still can't stop laughing...

 

Don

Mission accomplished

[Lee1977 6,657]

Are you completely changing the steering, the Wheel Horse steering is 1/2 turn each way.  If you are putting that in to the existing steering it will be 5 complete  turns to the left and five complete turns to the right..If you go from all the way from left to right it will be ten complete turns. Adding holes to the triangle is not going to make much difference the number of turns will be the same.. You will be busier then a one arm paper hanger.

You don't need anything more the 2 or 3 to 1. If you are still using that big wheel you have enough leveraged to strip all the teeth off the fan gear.

[ebinmaine 67,455]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:17 PM, Lee1977 said:

Are you completely changing the steering

Yes, to tighten it up as much as possible. 

 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:17 PM, Lee1977 said:

Wheel Horse steering is 1/2 turn each way.  If you are putting that in to the existing steering it will be 5 complete  turns to the left and five complete turns to the right..If you go from all the way from left to right it will be ten complete turns

It's 1/2 turn each way WITH the Wheelhorse gear set in place. 

I'm taking the Wheelhorse gear set out. 

 

EDIT:

IIFF I use this gearbox I  should end up 2.5 to 3.5 total turns lock to lock.

 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:17 PM, Lee1977 said:

triangle

I'm not modifying the triangle. That was already set where it works.  

 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:17 PM, Lee1977 said:

You will be busier then a one arm paper hanger.

You don't need anything more the 2 or 3 to 1. If you are still using that big wheel you have enough leveraged to strip all the teeth off the fan gear

 

Even 4 or 5 turns each direction isn't unreasonable if it's easy movement. 

I've run trucks and forklifts that did that. 

The only time you're busy is backing into a tight spot or taking super sharp turns. 

No worries. 

 

I'm still using the big steering wheel, yes. 

 

It isn't about the leverage. I have plenty of leverage. 

It's about making the steering system have as little lash as possible.   

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by ebinmaine
Correct erroneous information

[ri702bill 8,316]

12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

12 hours ago, Oldskool said:

Is that slot for a shear pin of sorts?

Dunno.... @ri702bill... ?

Nope - and this just might be the deal breaker - it is a pinch clamp, similar to a one-piece clamp style shaft collar. Go back to your first picture in this post - the setscrew or plug - you remove that to gain access to the socket head cap screw. I am NOT seeing any flats or keyways on either the input or output - all your manhandling the steering wheel may cause that input connection to slip, or peg a rock with one wheel and the output may slip - either way ALL the shock load would be transferred thru the planetary gears .....

Bill

[ebinmaine 67,455]

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

Nope - and this just might be the deal breaker - it is a pinch clamp, similar to a one-piece clamp style shaft collar. Go back to your first picture in this post - the setscrew or plug - you remove that to gain access to the socket head cap screw. I am NOT seeing any flats or keyways on either the input or output - all your manhandling the steering wheel may cause that input connection to slip, or peg a rock with one wheel and the output may slip - either way ALL the shock load would be transferred thru the planetary gears .....

Bill

That's what I thought. 

Not being familiar with these gearboxes I wasn't sure. Thanks for confirming. 

 

I got this particular box purely because it was cheap and I wanted to see what it was.  

 

If it's reasonable to do so I wouldn't be opposed to using a Loctite type product to increase holding power. 

 

If it's just not going to be the right equipment to use, so be it and no worries. 

 

[wallfish 16,994]

Just a thought, but you can probably pin it too. Like grinding in 2 small grooves for a small roll pin added in the shaft. maybe 1/8" deep? It's the shear strength of the pin that holds it so it doesn't need to protrude far out of the shaft plus you don't want to weaken the collar.

The forces applied onto the output end shaft transfer backwards 10:1 through all that gearing so I'd be more worried about shearing a gear tooth. Try turning the output shaft to spin the input and you would need a pretty long lever to loose the connection on the input shaft.

 

[ebinmaine 67,455]

6 minutes ago, wallfish said:

The forces applied onto the output end shaft transfer backwards 10:1 through all that gearing so I'd be more worried about shearing a gear tooth

THAT would be my main concern. 

 

There's likely some sort of allowable torque spec. 

I haven't taken the time to look at the website yet.  

 

[ebinmaine 67,455]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:56 AM, ri702bill said:

ALL the shock load would be transferred thru the planetary gears

 

On 1/27/2022 at 6:38 AM, wallfish said:

I'd be more worried about shearing a gear tooth

 

On 1/27/2022 at 6:58 AM, ebinmaine said:

THAT would be my main concern. 

 

There's likely some sort of allowable torque spec. 

I haven't taken the time to look at the website yet.  

 

 

 

Folks, me n BBT tried to find whatever we could online. 

We really didn't have any luck.  

 

If one of you has any knowledge of these or can point us somewhere it would be MUCH appreciated.   

 

What I'm looking to find out is just how much force this particular gearbox can take.  

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

24 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

If one of you has any knowledge of these or can point us somewhere it would be MUCH appreciated. 

I will promptly send you my bill...

 

I uploaded the wrong manual the first time... it was referring to the PG series... you have PX series...

 

ANYHOO, now it is right...

 

Don

 

Bayside's Precision catalog 07.pdf - PX_Stealth_Gen1.pdf

Edited January 29, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Snoopy11 5,714]

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,714]

Any of that information help, there Eric?

 

Not really able to find anything else...

 

Don

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Oldskool 6,644]

For the price of it mount it somewhere and try to break it. 

I know it's a bit like "ugh hit with rock" but then you won't have to guess.

[ebinmaine 67,455]

3 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

Any of that information help, there Eric?

 

Not really able to find anything else...

 

Don

 

 

 

I'll check the PDF on the PC in the morning.  

 

 

58 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

"ugh hit with rock"

 

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,455]

1 hour ago, Oldskool said:

For the price of it mount it somewhere and try to break it. 

I know it's a bit like "ugh hit with rock" but then you won't have to guess.

So the issue here is:

 

How do I know how much pressure to test it with?

 

 

[8ntruck 6,998]

That chart looks like it ts giving allowable radial and axial loads on the shafts, not torque loads.  Is there some sort of horsepower rating for the gearbox?  With a horsepower rating, we could calculate a torque rating.

 

I would expect to find hardened steel gears in a unit like this.  I doubt that you could damage the gears by hand with your big steering wheel.  The gears are probably in the black section of the box with the model number sticker.  One, maybe two sets of planetary gears in there.  If there are two sets, the higher ratio set  (smaller gears) will be on the input end, and the lower ratio set (bigger gears) will be on the output end.  It would probably take a pretty severe impact on one of the front wheels to damage the gears. 

 

If we can find the torque rating for the box, we can figure out what you would have to do to the front wheels to break the box.  For that calculation, we'd need wheel size, spindle geometry, steering arm dimensions, and dimensions of the triangle on the end of the shaft where the inner tie rods connect.

[8ntruck 6,998]

Ok.  Now that I havedownloaded the pdf and looked at page 2, we now know the torque ratings:

 

Normal operating torque - 12.9 ft lb.  This is the maximum recommended normal operating torque.

Max. Acceleration torque - 15.3 ft lb.  This is the maximum recommended normal startup or shutdown torque.

 

Max. E-Stop torque - 44.1 ft lb.  This is the maximum salm on the brakes, stop it as quick as you can torque.  The gearbox is designed to survive 1000 applications of this amount of torque.  This is not the failure torque.  It will support more torque, but for fewer applications.

 

So, can you make 44 ft lb of torque with that big steering wheel?  Yup.  How often are you going to do it?  When reaching the steering stops?  When trying to turn the wheel when one of the front wheels is blocked by a log or a rare boulder on your property?  How hard do you have to hit something with a front wheel to back feed that amount of torque to the steering wheel?  This depends on the steering linkage geometry.

 

My gut reaction after seeing the torque specs for the gearbox is that it would work, but is open to durability issues.  It probably be OK for a tractor being used mainly on smooth, level ground,  which from what I've seen from your pictures, ain't what you will be doing.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by 8ntruck

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

@ebinmaine might I suggest using a steering box out of a car? Those can be adjusted to take all the slack out of the system. I've used that on my Murray to IH build and it works well.

The biggest advantage I found is that everything is contained in a compact, robust unit. Also I think you won't be very happy with 8 to 10 turns from left to right. Maximum this should be about 3 turns.. 

 

Edit: the steering box i've used came out of a VW bug type 1302.

Edited January 30, 2022 by sjoemie himself
Added info

[ebinmaine 67,455]

@8ntruck

Thank you for taking the time to read the specs and "translate" them for me.  

 

Thought provoking for sure. 

 

When speaking of the torque ratings is that to say that if the output shaft were held still the input shaft could be subjected to the above listed numbers?

Or is it a moving rotation torque which I understand is very different. 

 

I'm trying to process to myself how many times I've experienced a torque rating of (say 44 ft-lbs) while driving in the rough terrain. 

To that end we've been smoothing the paths, eliminating rocks as we find them, don't put new paths over rougher areas etc. 

 

The steering geometry was carefully calculated (to the best of my very limited understanding) to reduce the strain in what will be a heavy machine. 

I chose tri rib tires to ease twisting motion effort. 

I had the spindles made with a pretty fair tilt of the tires to the top/outside which I've read benefits steering ease and steering traction on 2WD tractors. 

 

Still not sure which way I'll go yet but excellent food for thought.  

 

[ebinmaine 67,455]

5 minutes ago, sjoemie himself said:

@ebinmaine might I suggest using a steering box out of a car? Those can be adjusted to take all the slack out of the system. I've used that on my Murray to IH build and it works well.

The biggest advantage I found is that everything is contained in a compact, robust unit. Also I think you won't be very happy with 8 to 10 turns from left to right. Maximum this should be about 3 turns.. 

 

Edit: the steering box i've used came out of a VW bug type 1302.

 

I've thought about doing just that, and may yet. 

Car, or go-cart type.  

 

Lock to lock turns count between 3 and 5 would be ideal to me but even twice that is fine.  

The average speed I'll be traveling is about 2.5 to 4 mph so quick movement of the wheel isn't a huge concern.  

 

Most of our current paths and all our newly created ones are made in a loop so we don't spend as much time backing around tight spaces. It certainly does still happen, just not a constant.