Talking Opposed Twin Torque Curves

[sgtsampay 117]

So, I have been curious about this topic for a long time. After lots of hunting around the internet, I found some old data. I figured if I shared it, then maybe some of your people with much better knowledge can talk about this topic. Basically, why does everyone say that the Onan makes "gobs more torque" than really anything else? According to this data the Kohler M20 vs. the Onan P220g are right neck and neck. The 18Hp Onan makes more than the M18 but only a couple FTlbs. Now for comparison, the K341 I have in my C160, makes a max of 29ftlbs @ 2,200rpm according to a source i found. I still don't have a graph to confirm it though. Anyways, doesn't seem that much power than my K341 for the 20HP twins. Anyone else have some feedback?

 

Here are the graphs. 

Kohler M18/M20

Onan P218

Onan P220

Onan P224

 

Now in regards of the 24hp Onan, it truly makes a difference of up to 40ftlbs. But besides the gravely, any other company use it? 

Edited January 24, 2022 by sgtsampay

[ebinmaine 70,807]

This could be an interesting discussion.

The biggest difference I notice between a single and a twin is the smoothness.

 

To some extent it's going to be personal preference. Lots of us prefer a nice clean butter smooth idle and running and others really prefer the lumpiness of a big single.

 

In a small engine comparing 29 ft lb to 32 ft lb could potentially be a noticeable difference. That's around 10%.

 

 

[kpinnc 13,793]

Curious what exactly is included in the "extended life service package"...

 

I have an old Toro Groundsmaster that has a P220 with a remote oil filter and oil cooler. That mower had 2500 hours on it 10 years ago when I started using it. No doubt now over 3000 hours, and it purrs like a kitten and is very strong.

 

Bet that cooler has something to do with it? 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Cool that you dug this up, I have wondered about it as well, but never bothered to research it, always getting seat time instead! Don’t know enough of this stuff to tell you about the other stuff but I do know one thing, IMHO the Onans sound friggin’ awesome. As for torque, no clue but it gets what I need done so I’m happy. I see Eric has just mentioned the discussion of sound. I’m going to follow this for sure.

[ebinmaine 70,807]

5 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

I see Eric has just mentioned the discussion of sound

 

Sounds, yes. And also the feel as well.

@JCM has a 417 - 8 that I've driven a little. We now have the 417A here in our yard for a bit.

There's a very noticeable difference between those two engines and my two mid-70s single cylinder c-160s which are also an 8-speed and an automatic.

[sgtsampay 117]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Sounds, yes. And also the feel as well.

@JCM has a 417 - 8 that I've driven a little. We now have the 417A here in our yard for a bit.

There's a very noticeable difference between those two engines and my two mid-70s single cylinder c-160s which are also an 8-speed and an automatic.

Are you talking a difference in sound or other things? 

 

Also, does anyone have information on the Briggs twins? 

 

Any ideas on the fuel consumption for all of these engines? 

 

I was hoping to start a fun conversation.  

[ebinmaine 70,807]

Just now, sgtsampay said:

hoping to start a fun conversation

Looks like you succeeded there. 

 

As far as actually putting an engine to WORK I can really only comment on the single cylinder.

I've had a couple of twin Briggs and they sound good. Never done anything but just drive them around though.

 

 

@kpinnc

Any experience with Briggs twins versus Kohler or Onan?

[Snoopy11 5,717]

Wonder why they are only laying out 2,200 rpm...?

 

Dyno tests by various groups that I have read behind all run a bit higher...

 

Don

[lynnmor 7,577]

21 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

Curious what exactly is included in the "extended life service package"...

 

They had better valves and a few other minor bits.

[lynnmor 7,577]

Torque has become a major advertising gimmick in recent times.  Advertising big numbers apparently sells trucks and other equipment and folks don't understand how it applies to their usage.  Horsepower is the measure of work that an engine can do.  A higher torque number compared to an engine with equal horsepower only means that it is turning slower with higher internal pressures.  This subject always degenerates into a contest that proves nothing.

[Snoopy11 5,717]

2 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

This subject always degenerates into a contest that proves nothing

Yep... only a matter of time...

 

Don

[sgtsampay 117]

Some more data to add to the list. Here are the Vanguards. Again, no different. Interesting. So just better emissions? 

[kpinnc 13,793]

It is not my intention to start a contest here... But rather an agreement with previous posts.

 

My 14 horse Vanguard V-twin ran circles around my P218 with the same transmission and mower deck. 

 

The governor response is completely different between the two. The Onans are noticable when the governor pulls in. A definitive "strain" is audible. My 520-H does the same thing. Almost a delayed effect?

 

I can't even tell when the Vanguards do it. It's almost seamless. You can't make me believe that Onan has more "accessable" power. Charts be damned... 

 

41 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

This subject always degenerates into a contest that proves nothing.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by kpinnc

[oldlineman 1,495]

It's the same old story, Ford, Mopar, Chevy, Kohler, Onan, Tecky, B & S, we all have our likes, doesn't make the competition bad.  Bob 

[kpinnc 13,793]

18 minutes ago, oldlineman said:

It's the same old story, Ford, Mopar, Chevy, Kohler, Onan, Tecky, B & S, we all have our likes, doesn't make the competition bad.  Bob 

 

Agreed 100 percent!

 

So far as favorite runners and  including working on them- flathead Kohlers rule!

 

Me personally, Vanguard V twin horizontals are a distant second place. Great power and simple to work on.

 

Onans run so nice. The have a purr like a mini diesel- almost hypnotic... But working on them for even minor fixes is a pain. 3rd place for me, and not even a close one.

 

Got rid of all my Teccys. I hear some folks love them. I hear skunks make good pets too, but I'll leave that to the folks with experience. I can enjoy both from a safe distance... 

 

Got an opposed Kohler twin in a box that I'll tackle eventually. List subject to change during the course of that one.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by kpinnc

[roadapples 6,983]

First off, as far as sound, I couldn't care less. At 73, the quieter the better. 

   I have a C160 with Ark 550 loader and backhoe. I don't think the hoe weights less than 400lbs. Before the hoe was installed I tried to pick it up with the bucket and couldn't move it. So I've got about all the traction I can handle. Yet when scooping up a load of stones, ground, etc, it still wants to spin the wheels if I'm not careful. Don't know what I'd do with any more torque....

[kpinnc 13,793]

5 minutes ago, roadapples said:

Don't know what I'd do with any more torque....

 

Very true.

 

The only time any of my machines struggle is if they have to backup my zero turn. The grass here is thick, heavy fescue. It really takes a toll on whatever has to cut it. This is the only thing I've ever seen make my machines struggle a bit.

 

...but they still get it done! 

 

[sgtsampay 117]

1 hour ago, roadapples said:

First off, as far as sound, I couldn't care less. At 73, the quieter the better. 

   I have a C160 with Ark 550 loader and backhoe. I don't think the hoe weights less than 400lbs. Before the hoe was installed I tried to pick it up with the bucket and couldn't move it. So I've got about all the traction I can handle. Yet when scooping up a load of stones, ground, etc, it still wants to spin the wheels if I'm not careful. Don't know what I'd do with any more torque....

I would love to see a picture of your c-160! That must be awesome!

 

I also agree that more torque is pointless at times however like a big mower deck or snowblowing more power is always helpful. Besides ,I must be missing something or wheelhorse would have never gone to the twin cylinder engines.. 

[ebinmaine 70,807]

1 minute ago, sgtsampay said:

Besides ,I must be missing something or wheelhorse would have never gone to the twin cylinder engines

 

You have to keep the general consumers happy.

 

A 17 horse engine is clearly far superior to a 16 horse engine in the eyes of someone who is shopping for a tractor and does not actually have the full knowledge of what they are shopping for.

 

A twin engine is probably Superior in most people's minds to a single engine because the twin is twice what a single could ever possibly hope to be.

 

Marketing aside, it could have also been a condition of availability.

Wheel Horse has been well known to literally create a model to sell off old inventory of parts so nothing would surprise me there.

I don't think we will ever know.

 

Maybe?

Maybe they wanted 2000 engines. Maybe? Maybe they could only get 1,000 singles so they decided to buy 1,000 twins and upmarket them a hair.

 

Maybe? They were doing nothing more or less than trying to keep up with the joneses, so to speak, and go to twins because that's what the general consensus in the industry was leading up to.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,717]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

You have to keep the general consumers happy.

 

A 17 horse engine is clearly far superior to a 16 horse engine in the eyes of someone who is shopping for a tractor and does not actually have the full knowledge of what they are shopping for.

 

A twin engine is probably Superior in most people's minds to a single engine because the twin is twice what a single could ever possibly hope to be.

 

Marketing aside, it could have also been a condition of availability.

Wheel Horse has been well known to literally create a model to sell off old inventory of parts so nothing would surprise me there.

I don't think we will ever know.

 

Maybe?

Maybe they wanted 2000 engines. Maybe? Maybe they could only get 1,000 singles so they decided to buy 1,000 twins and upmarket them a hair.

 

Maybe? They were doing nothing more or less than trying to keep up with the joneses, so to speak, and go to twins because that's what the general consensus in the industry was leading up to.

 

 

In essence... for SH!TS and giggles...

 

I like v-twins... don't get me wrong. BUT, many of the twins I have worked on are basically 2 - 212 bases put together.

 

You give me a v-twin that has internals as big as a 420... basically 2 - 420 bases put together... I will be happy.

 

But then again... you have to pay for 420 bases.

 

Don

[kpinnc 13,793]

49 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Wheel Horse has been well known to literally create a model to sell off old inventory of parts so nothing would surprise me there.

 

Yep. Like a business model almost. That and clearing inventory by creating new models. Think 1045 or 2500 Special. There are many others.

 

Somewhere a company decided to go with a twin, and suddenly everyone wanted them.

 

Not to mention I'll bet a twin was very close to the expense of a K341/ Magnum 16. So far as manufacturing is concerned, more bling for the buck.

[roadapples 6,983]

...@sgtsampay

2 hours ago, sgtsampay said:

I would love to see a picture of your c-160! That must be awesome!

 

a big mower deck or snowblowing more power is always helpful. 

I have no problem with bigger engines and more power. I have a 520 strictly for a 2 stage blower. That or a 60" deck is the only reason I would want anything bigger than a single 16.....

[ebinmaine 70,807]

3 minutes ago, roadapples said:

 

Love this beast. 

 

Never see my woman if she ever got one. You'd have to pry her off the seat wit' a crowbar.  

[Achto 28,803]

A quote from Briggs as to why they choose to switch to displaying the torque of an engine instead of the HP.

 

"While horsepower has been traditionally used for these applications to measure engine power, torque values are not new for engines. Gross Torque is the immediate twisting force required to turn a blade or pump at a given moment. Thus, torque is the way to measure the rotational force a machine can produce."

 

 While I agree that HP is important to us plus lets face it, it is the term we grew up with and are most familiar with. I kind of compare it to living in the US and measuring with the metric system. For some reason it's just not natural to most of us.

 

So let me give one example of the difference that torque makes.

A Cummins 350 is rated at 350HP at 1800RPMs and a torque rating of 1175ftlbs of torque at 1300RPMs.

A Dodge 5.7 Hemi is rated at 395HP at 5600RPMs and a torque rating of 400ftlbs of torque at 4000RPMs

 

Given these HP facts one might want to choose the 5.7 Hemi. More horse power!!! Which would be a good choice depending on what you want to do with it. If I was putting it in a hot rod car, I'm all for the 5.7. But if you were putting it in a semi truck or a farm tractor, which one would you choose??? The higher torque rating is more capable of doing the heavy work.

 

A Car & Driver article that explains  torque and horse power.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15347872/horsepower-vs-torque-whats-the-difference/

Edited January 24, 2022 by Achto

[kpinnc 13,793]

5 minutes ago, roadapples said:

have no problem with bigger engines and more power. I have a 520 strictly for a 2 stage blower. That or a 60" deck is the only reason I would want anything bigger than a single 16.....

 

Holy Crapolie, Batman!

 

That is one decked out C-160!