Auto 18 Hydro leak. Axles and lines

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

Hi everyone,

My 1973 Auto 18  is having some major oil leak problems. 
 

Daveoman66 did an amazing job rebuilding it when I first bought it over a decade ago. But sadly I've been Unable to get a hold of him. 

She still runs but I need to  add about 1 1/2 qt of oil to use it, as it all leaks out every day I use it!

The leaks come out of the axle seals and also out of hydro line plate. 
 

I have no clue how to change the axle seals as I can't seem to even pull off the wheel mounts. Afraid to push too hard and break them. 
 

Also is there a gasket between where the hydro line plate is screwed in? 
 

Yes Ive looked at the the Sunstrand manuals, but it's overwhelming and not sure how I can solve this problem. 

Ive attached some pics and would love any guidance if any one can weigh in. 👍🙏🇺🇸

Happy New Year to all!   May 2022 be even better than 2021 😳!

Edited …

Jacques 

 

 

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,330]

I edited the last comment … anyhow in terms of the auto 18. I had one that I did a total rear rebuild. Based on what you have there you may want to consider doing the same. Reason I say this is the auto 18 and all D series prior to 1976 came with non hardened pinion bolts. Do to that the bolts would sheer and the bolt heads would drop to the bottom of the case and the bull gear would push it out the bottom of the case. 
The other issue you have with that tranny design is the “pawl” e brake. When engaged and you forgot to disengage it you will sheer the gear. For those reasons I would pull it apart and replace the carrier bolts with grade 8 and at that time change the seals and bearings that need to be replaced. Lastly I would put a mechanical stop on the parking pawl so that you can never engage it. 
 

Before doing this work I would check the bottom of those cases and see if they have been repaired via weld or brazing. 
 

After a complete rebuild I found out I should not use the parking pawl 😳 

[pfrederi 17,741]

OK Pulling the hubs can be a big challenge (you have to pull from the back of the hub) ...but if the seals have been leaking maybe it will not be to bad.  The manifold leak you show is not a gasket issue (there is none) there are 4 O rings 2 backer tings and a "special sealing washer". ( i can send you all of them no charge)  Working on D series is not real easy. This is not a quick Saturday afternoon in the driveway project.  Hate to say this but how would you rate your mechanical ability and availability of tools???

Edited December 26, 2021 by pfrederi

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,326]

2 hours ago, wheelhorse-c-161-1979 said:

Hi everyone,

My 1973 Auto 18  is having some major oil leak problems. 
 

Daveoman66 did an amazing job rebuilding it when I first bought it over a decade ago. But sadly I've been Unable to get a hold of him. 

 

 

 

He is a member here, maybe you didn’t know that?

 @daveoman1966

[953 nut 55,298]

@stevebo has some good advise there.           

Ditch the three jaw puller before you bust the hub. Rent a large bearing splitter that will clear the hub. 

What is that spacer doing on your axle, it has eaten you axle seal. Once the hubs are off you can pull the spacers off and throw them away.

 

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

"The manifold leak you show is not a gasket issue (there is none) there are 4 O rings 2 backer tings and a "special sealing washer". ( i can send you all of them no charge)  Working on D series is not real easy. This is not a quick Saturday afternoon in the driveway project.  Hate to say this but how would you rate your mechanical ability and availability of tools???

Hi Sir, 

Did you say 4 O rings 2 backer rings and a "special sealing washer"? 

If so , yes  I do have the tools.  Good enough to to get my self in trouble at times, lol

 

I certainly could address the issue with a set of O rings and whatever those " backer rings and washer are. 
 

If you have them, I would gladly pay for the cost and shipping. !!!
 

As for replacing the axle seals, that would be the next step, where I will need some guidance.

 

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO PRIVATE TEXT ME I will give you all my contact & payment info! 
 

Thanks so much for the input and feedback👍🙏🇺🇸

Thank you so much!
Most respectfully, 

Jacques

 

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

2 hours ago, stevebo said:

I had one that I did a total rear rebuild. Based on what you have there you may want to consider doing the same. Reason I say this is the auto 18 and all D series prior to 1976 came with non hardened pinion bolts. Do to that the bolts would sheer and the bolt heads would drop to the bottom of the case and the bull gear would push it out the bottom of the case. 
The other issue you have with that tranny design is the “pawl” e brake.

Hi Sir,

Thank you for your sacrifice & service to our Nation 🙏🇺🇸
 

I had to replace  the rear couple of years ago.  Those spacers came with it. 
 

Never ever used the emergency brake. 
 

If I am able to remove the hubs, how do I replace the axle seals? 
 

Is this a service you offer ? 

Kindly let me know, 

Most respectfully, 

Jacques

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

1 hour ago, Sparky said:

He is a member here, maybe you didn’t know that?

 @daveoman1966

Yea I do!

He's an amazing man who did a brilliant rebuild of the Sunstrand. 
Sadly been unable to get a hold of him recently. I hope all is well as we  kept in touch often. 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by wheelhorse-c-161-1979

[daveoman1966 3,752]

I hear you Jacques... and have no idea why you can't contact me.  Anyway...  About the 18 Auto leaking.  From your pic of the Hyd Line Plate... It appears to me that your trans oil is 'weeping' at the plate...causing the wet messy area on top.  When I rebuilt the Sundstrand pump, I sent new O-rings and gasket to your mechanic in New York. To replace these is NOT a simple task as noted by pfrederi.  Before replacing the O-rings and Seal, may I suggest that you FIRST retighten the 4 bolts holding that plate...as well as the 4 bolts holding the Hyd Motor to the transmission case.  Things loosen up over time and this MAY be an easy and quick way to stop the oil seeping.  After you tighten things up, wipe the area dry and watch for further seeping.  

 

As for the really bad axle seals you have...Don't use any sort of 3-jaw puller...likely to break a hub.  Instead, rent the Big Bearing separator (Auto Zone).  The axle seal part number is 6449 readily available and there are Youtube videos of how to remove and install new seals. 

 

Finally the 'spacer' shown on your axles are OEM axle covers and are shown in the Toro MPV as part # 103406 in the 18-Auto schematics (13-16 in this schematic).     

You can see all the schematics for the 18 Auto here... (using model # 1-0620)  

https://lookup3.toro.com/partdex/back2lst.cfm?xCaller=Toro&o=2&x=580

You can, of course contact me at:  daveoman@windstream.net

 

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

I would also like to chime in here. Should you have to replace the seals on the manifold plate there are a set simple set of studs that can be made to align the plate so as to prevent the slippage of the series of seals between the manifold plate and the pump. The Service manual depicts these very clearly.

Edited December 27, 2021 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[pfrederi 17,741]

Definitely follow Dave's advice and just clean up the area and retighten first.  I am sending you the Orings and sealing washer replacement today.  If you have to replace things note the backer rings have concave surface on one side..that goes against the other O-ring a little grease helps hold them in place during assembly.  Axle seal is CR/SKF 11124

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

1 hour ago, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

I would also like to chime in here. Should you have to replace the seals on the manifold plate there are a set simple set of studs that can be made to align the plate so as to prevent the slippage of the series of seals between the manifold plate and the pump. The Service manual depicts these very clearly

Hi Sir, 

Thanks for chiming in! 
 

And the pictures you show are from a manual I do not have. I have Sunstrand pt1 thru 4. 
 

Which manual are you using that I should be downloading?

 

Thank you again for that helpful tip! 
All the best, 

Jacques

 

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

5 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Definitely follow Dave's advice and just clean up the area and retighten first.  I am sending you the Orings and sealing washer replacement today.  If you have to replace things note the backer rings have concave surface on one side..that goes against the other O-ring a little grease helps hold them in place during assembly.  Axle seal is CR/SKF 11124

Thank you so much, please text me or call and let me know how much I owe you, beyond my genuine gratitude to you and this wonderful forum! 

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

7 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

Before replacing the O-rings and Seal, may I suggest that you FIRST retighten the 4 bolts holding that plate...as well as the 4 bolts holding the Hyd Motor to the transmission case.  Things loosen up over time and this MAY be an easy and quick way to stop the oil seeping.  After you tighten things up, wipe the area dry and watch for further seeping.  

Hi Dave, 

Its so great to hear from you again.  Yes I am one of the proud Americans who has been banned from FB. 😇🙏✊🇺🇸

An exciting turn of events as I am now on board with 45's Class Action lawsuit against big tech censorship. 👍⚖️
 

I left you a PM of my new contact info.  I'll send you an email as well. Jacques_usa@mac.com

 

Two years ago the tractor broke down in the snow deep in the woods.  The plate had come loose and the O-rings blew.

 

I cleaned it all up in 20F weather and put in the best O rings I could find. 
 

It worked well enough to get the tractor operational, though a constant but manageable leak continued. 

 

Now that I am safely in LA, ( Lower Alabam') I have the old girl hoisted up with ample room to work on her.

Than you again for your steadfast help and knowledge, that has kept my '73 running every day on little farm! 
 

To be continued by private email! 
 

Jacques

 

 

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

11 hours ago, wheelhorse-c-161-1979 said:

Hi Sir, 

Thanks for chiming in! 
 

And the pictures you show are from a manual I do not have. I have Sunstrand pt1 thru 4. 
 

Which manual are you using that I should be downloading?

 

Thank you again for that helpful tip! 
All the best, 

Jacques

 

Your welcome (only if it helps). There is a plethora of manuals and useful posts on this subject here on the forum, be sure and check out the files section thoroughly. I also agree the thing to do is to rebuild everything related to the entire divorced system. (The thing is, it's as though they held the pump in their hands and built the tractor around it!) Wouldn't hurt to replace the oil seal behind your flywheel while your apart, a 2.00 part can go bad and create another leak that although unrelated, can become an avoidable  problem.

There is a Pump tear down procedure posted by some fellow members that is outstanding, involved but well worth some contemplation as you may want to consider this as well? I threw in some other manuals might find interesting...

D_SERIES.pdf Tractor_1978_B-C-D-SeriesServiceManual_810063Rl.pdf Heres the process of tearing down a hydro pump from a D.docx

Tractor 1973 18hp Auto 1-0600 TIPL.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto 1-0601 Details & Attachments.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto 1-0601 TIPL.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto 1-0610 TIPL.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto 1-0620 TIPL.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto Brakes Disc Turning 8-1901 #814.pdf Tractor 1973 18hp Auto Relief valve kit.pdf

Edited December 28, 2021 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

On 12/27/2021 at 8:30 PM, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

Your welcome (only if it helps). There is a plethora of manuals and useful posts on this subject here on the forum, be sure and check out the files section thoroughly.

Hi ManicMecanic!
 

Sorry for the delay in response. Was away from my computer tending to the farm without the luxury of my Auto 18! 
Thank you so much for the extra manual list. 
I'm goin a dive in and do my best.

 

Will rent the hub puller.  Have no clue yet, how to pull the old axle seals.  But will dive in to the manuals for the answers.

 

God bless you sir,

Ill keep the faith, and keep you posted.

Jacques

"We highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." ⚖️✊🙏🇺🇸

 

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

9 hours ago, wheelhorse-c-161-1979 said:

Hi ManicMecanic!
 

Sorry for the delay in response. Was away from my computer tending to the farm without the luxury of my Auto 18! 
Thank you so much for the extra manual list. 
I'm goin a dive in and do my best.

 

Will rent the hub puller.  Have no clue yet, how to pull the old axle seals.  But will dive in to the manuals for the answers.

 

God bless you sir,

Ill keep the faith, and keep you posted.

Jacques

"We highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." ⚖️✊🙏🇺🇸

 

The axle seals are easy enough, just get something in between the axle and the rubber part of the seal and pry outwards. Even a flat head screwdriver or paint can opener, pull outwards. Then use a nice piece of PVC Pipe matching diameter to the seal rim and tap the new one in, keeping an eye on the edge to be sure it goes in evenly all the way round...

Edited December 30, 2021 by "Manic-Mechanic"

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 hours ago, "Manic-Mechanic" said:

piece of PVC Pipe

 

I like to use the hub as a 'slide hammer'

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

11 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I like to use the hub as a 'slide hammer'

I like that, wondering why I never did that! Lol

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

Well after an unexpected sad family event that took priority,  I'm back to attack this tractor that has not moved since that picture.

I'm downloading the additional manuals that Manic Mechanic kindly pointed out for me, and plan to install the new O rings that pfrederi was so kind in mailing! 🙏
Good Lord willin' finally movin' forward!

Jacques

["Manic-Mechanic" 1,194]

Really looking forwards to see what all happens as you go at it with this project-pictures, pictures,pictures!

 

 

 

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

Well Mother Nature has not been very cooperative.  We goat a major rain storm. And today was high winds and bone cold with a humidity and temps in the 40's.

 

Praying that tomorrow will be the day I can finally get back and fix the hydro plate leak. Promise to take pics. 
 

Than you for your support and help! Can't wait to get her back to work. 
 

Stay warm. Stay Safe. 
⚖️🙏🏻🗽🇺🇸

Jacques

[wheelhorse-c-161-1979 117]

Howdy to all!

Update on the Auto 18 axle leak and the hydrostatic oil leak...

( I hope all is well with all who are fighting the arctic cold & snow. I do miss selling off my C-161 with the snow thrower. It was awesome. The cold and endless winters not so much! )

So eternal thanks to Pfrederi on this blog for his amazing help in actually sending me the O Rings you see a few posts above!

The O-Rings seem like a 3 minute job at first glance... Remove 4 screws, Lift the hydraulic plate, remove old rings, clean up area and put new  O-Rings in and put the bolts back in, and  job done. Lol

Except that accessing the O-Rings from above where the seat was removed, provides virtually No visibility & No room to put them in!

DISCLAIMER: There might have been a much easier way to do this, but this is how I managed the O-Ring replacement! lol

 

So I realized that instead of removing all the side plates of the tractor, I decided instead to remove  8 (eight)   9/16" bolts that hold the transaxle in place  ( four bolts  accessible from the rear  and four bolts from the front) I could gently lower the transaxle and it's hydraulic plate that hold the O-Rings, by about 3 inches or so, giving me room to  insert the new O-Rings to the high pressure ports and low pressure ports.

 

Being the only person on this job, I realized,  before lowering the transaxle that there was no way I would be able to line up the bolts again, if I simply dropped the transaxle, as it is much to heavy for one person..

 

Therefore,  I ensured that the transaxle would stay in place by loosening the four top bolts, and replacing two of them temporarily  with Two Longer bolts as vertical guides, which  would give me additional space to seat the new O-Rings in place from the left side of the tractor. The plate would become visible and accessible from the side after lowering the transaxle.

 

The hoist with the strap, held up the rear of the tractor, while, the hydraulic jack, gently supported the transaxle which I lowered after loosening the bolts.

 

Once the O rings where seated with a little grease, as per the manual,  I then  jacked up the transaxle sufficiently to get all four hydro plate bolts partially screwed in, and then continued jacking up the transaxle, until i could remove the long bolt guides and then tighten up all 8 bolts to secure the  transaxle assembly in place.

 

Following a little prayer, I then refilled the Sunstrand hydro with oil, and started the tractor in place while still cradled by the hoist.

 

Miraculously, there was no leak,  and  thanks to Pfrederi and ManicMechanic, the first oil leak source seems fixed!!!

Now it's time to address the major leak coming from the transaxle seals that are shot!

To be continued!

 

[Handy Don 12,235]

Ok, my calculation might have gone like this:

Amount of difficulty having it leak -- X

Amount of difficulty fixing the leak -- Y

 

Be really sure X is a lot more than Y before starting in on the fix!

 

Still and all, I'l really impressed at how hard it was to make the change and that you got it done. Good on 'ya!

[pfrederi 17,741]

Great job!!