safety switches????

[Joe 77 B100 84]

I've spent hours cleaning the carb on my 77 100, checked all the grounds and connections I could find but I got nothing when I went to turn it over.

Does anyone know where I should check for safety switches that might be the issue?  And, I don't think there is a parking break but if there is I don't know where it's at. 

Any suggestions would be great.  While I'm waiting on that answer, I'm gonna order new points and a condenser.  I didn't wanna mess with them yet but looks like I've got extra time to work on it.

Thanks in advance.

[Gregor 4,846]

I am not familiar with a B-100. I don't even know if you have manual or electric PTO.  Do you have a PTO switch? Did the tractor turn over before the tune up? The first thing you could do is by-pass all safety switches for testing. PUT TRACTOR IN NEUTRAL  PUT TRACTOR IN NEUTRAL  PUT TRACTOR IN NEUTRAL  Using a jumper wire, Any old piece of wire, is jump,the solenoid. The solenoid should have

two large cables on it and one small wire. One cable to the battery, the other to the starter. The small wire, don't worry about it yet. Using your jumper wire, jump from the large cable coming from the battery to the post with the small wire. LEAVE YOUR KEY OFF! (one problem at time here). If the motor tuns over, then you have to find the open circuit. PTO interlock switch? Clutch pedal switch? Bad ignition switch? Bad ground or other connection ? The wiring diagram I am looking at shows a seat switch. While this could prevent your motor from starting, I don't believe it would prevent it from turning over.

If after conducting the above test, it still won't turn over, use your jumper cables from your car. Black to battery NEG ( - ), red to battery POS ( + ) Other end of black cable to a GOOD ground some where on the motor. Other end of red cable to the post directly on the starter.  Do these thing, note results, and post again.

 

The file below has a complete wiring diagram for a 1977 B-100 8 speed. This manual shows an electric clutch. I don't know if you have that or not.

Click on the pic, it will open.

 

And of course....   to 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Gregor

[ebinmaine 67,496]

 

It would be helpful to us if you could post some pics. 

 

 

2 hours ago, ecojoe69 said:

on my 77 100, checked all the grounds and connections I could find but I got nothing when I went to turn it over

 

Strictly define "got nothing". 

No power anywhere?

Engine turns but won't start?

 

Remember these are DC systems. 

Direct Current. No ground means no circuit. 

 

Do you have a volt meter or test light ?

 

 

Have you REMOVED and cleaned ALL the wires one by one to verify good connection?

 

 

 

There's some great info in this thread by @EB-80/8inPA :

 

 

Your B100 does have a parking brake whether it's a manual or automatic, of sorts. 

If it's a manual transmission it'll be obvious with a literal brake drum on the side of the transmission. 

If it's an automatic transmission the "park brake" engages when you move the drive belt lever to the disengaged position. There will be a lever inside the transmission that catches a gear. 

There will be safety switches on the left pedal and the PTO. 

 

IMHO try to CLEAN the points if they're original. Not replace them.  OE Kohler points can and do last decades.  

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,043]

There are just 2 safety switches on your model and they are both for the starter circuit.

There are no safety switches on the ignition circuit.

Click on the picture in the link. Two diagrams will come up - one for models using an electric pto clutch and one for models with a manual pto clutch.

 

Make sure you are getting battery voltage at the coil (+) terminal when you are in START (cranking) position of the ignition switch. The ignition switch can fail and not provide power in both the RUN and Start key positions which is required.

 

If that is OK then test the coil (-) terminal. As the engine cranks you should have power here when the points are open and no power when the points are closed. This ON-OFF-ON cycle should happen once for every two rotations of the engine crankshaft.

 

Let us know what you find.

 

 

[953 nut 55,228]

5 hours ago, ecojoe69 said:

I've spent hours cleaning the carb on my 77 100, checked all the grounds and connections I could find but I got nothing when I went to turn it over. If you place an old screwdriver or pliers across the two large terminals of your solenoid will the starter turn over?

Does anyone know where I should check for safety switches that might be the issue?  And, I don't think there is a parking break but if there is I don't know where it's at. As @gwest_ca said one safety switch is for the PTO, it is located where the handle pivots (inside near the battery) and the other is for the brakes. If you have an 8 speed your parking brake is a small lever that is shown in the drawing below as # 11. If it is an automatic then it is the same lever that tightens your drive belt. When up it applies the parking brake which may be worn out.

Any suggestions would be great.  While I'm waiting on that answer, I'm gonna order new points and a condenser.  I didn't wanna mess with them yet but looks like I've got extra time to work on it.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

You guys ROCK!  That is SO helpful. 

I do have to google a bit of the technical terminology that you are using but you are being incredibly helpful.  That image above with just the details of the console is something I've been looking for for quite awhile.

My wife is getting a bit annoyed at how much time I am spending in my shop not but I am loving working on the tractor-which is something I've never considered doing in the past.  Retirement is just around the corner and I think I found my retirement hobby.

I will send lots of pics later.

[Joe 77 B100 84]

7 hours ago, Gregor said:

I am not familiar with a B-100. I don't even know if you have manual or electric PTO.  Do you have a PTO switch?

I gotta be honest and say I am not even sure where it would be on this tractor.

 

Did the tractor turn over before the tune up?

No.  It came dead and the guy who owned it before me is coming over tonight.  He said the last time he used it "it just stopped".  I am going to ask if that means the engine died or the tractor quit moving.

 

7 hours ago, Gregor said:

two large cables on it and one small wire. One cable to the battery, the other to the starter. The small wire, don't worry about it yet. Using your jumper wire, jump from the large cable coming from the battery to the post with the small wire. LEAVE YOUR KEY OFF! (one problem at time here). If the motor tuns over, then you have to find the open circuit. PTO interlock switch? Clutch pedal switch? Bad ignition switch? Bad ground or other connection ? The wiring diagram I am looking at shows a seat switch. While this could prevent your motor from starting, I don't believe it would prevent it from turning over.

If after conducting the above test, it still won't turn over, use your jumper cables from your car. Black to battery NEG ( - ), red to battery POS ( + ) Other end of black cable to a GOOD ground some where on the motor. Other end of red cable to the post directly on the starter.  Do these thing, note results, and post again.

 

The file below has a complete wiring diagram for a 1977 B-100 8 speed. This manual shows an electric clutch. I don't know if you have that or not.

Click on the pic, it will open.

 

And of course....   to 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

I use to do a lot of work in Loves Park. If you don't already have one, go to the Auto Zone on the highway, across the street from Ambrose Christmas Store, (if it's still there) and get a cheap $15 volt meter. With a cheap volt meter and 15 minutes, you can learn a lot.

 

If all else fails, I live about 2 1/2 hours away. Gotta truck?

[Joe 77 B100 84]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

It would be helpful to us if you could post some pics. 

In this thread or in my profile?

Strictly define "got nothing". 

Not a thing happened.  I was expecting it to at least turn over.

No power anywhere?

I didn't have the lights attached since the hood is off but I will check them with a voltage meter. The Ammeter (?) needle is in the middle?  But it might have come that way.

Engine turns but won't start?

Nope.  Nothing.  Not a click of a turn-over.

 

Remember these are DC systems. 

Direct Current. No ground means no circuit. 

I DID check all of the grounds.  Or, at least all I could see.  I cleaned them and lubed them.

Do you have a volt meter or test light ?

Yes.  But as a newbie its all greek to me.  I didn't learn ANYTHING about engines growing up. 

Have you REMOVED and cleaned ALL the wires one by one to verify good connection?

As many as I could find or seemed obvious.

 

There's some great info in this thread by @EB-80/8inPA :

 

 

Your B100 does have a parking brake whether it's a manual or automatic, of sorts. 

If it's a manual transmission it'll be obvious with a literal brake drum on the side of the transmission. 

If it's an automatic transmission the "park brake" engages when you move the drive belt lever to the disengaged position. There will be a lever inside the transmission that catches a gear. 

There will be safety switches on the left pedal and the PTO. 

 

IMHO try to CLEAN the points if they're original. Not replace them.  OE Kohler points can and do last decades.  

 

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

47 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

My wife is getting a bit annoyed at how much time I am spending in my shop

 

My 'treasurer' is ECSTATIC to have me out in the shop all day, every day!  She says it keeps me out of her hair.  I retired in August this year.  

 

What is she annoyed about?  That you're not doing something that she wants you to do for her? That's usually why they get annoyed.

 

[ebinmaine 67,496]

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

My 'treasurer' is ECSTATIC to have me out in the shop all day, every day!  She says it keeps me out of her hair.  I retired in August this year.  

 

What is she annoyed about?  That you're not doing something that she wants you to do for her? That's usually why they get annoyed.

 

Same here. Trina literally spends more time working on tractors than I do. I make a joke about it. But it really is true.

 

@ecojoe69 post pictures here in this thread so we can see what we're looking at.

 

Have no concern about getting that wiring fixed. It CAN be done.

Try not to look at it like a pile of wires that looks like spaghetti or a bird's nest. They're colored for a reason. Learn to follow the schematic diagrams and separate each circuit one by one. Get your test light or meter and work your way down through the circuits.

 

Study it 17 ways to ridiculousness if you have to. It's not a waste of time because you're learning something.

 

Teach yourself to repair the circuits appropriately and not just be a parts changer.

 

Keep asking questions. The chances are pretty much a 100% that one or several of us have already run into whatever it is that you're trying to figure out...

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

I still have little kids and although they will come mess in the shop with me, they are usually in the house in her hair.  She's not too upset.. she likes that I am enjoying learning this so much.

The battery was very low so I'm charging it now. 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

41 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Study it 17 ways to ridiculousness if you have to. It's not a waste of time because you're learning something.

This will come in very handy on your next Wheel Horse. And there WILL be a next! Trust me on this one.

47 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

My 'treasurer' is ECSTATIC to have me out in the shop all day, every day!  She says it keeps me out of her hair.

Absotutalutely !

[Gregor 4,846]

29 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

I still have little kids

Despite many of us being retired, you will find you are conversing mostly with little kids.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

57 minutes ago, Gregor said:

you will find you are conversing mostly with little kids

 

At the risk of repeating myself over and over and over...   I'm going to do it anyway because it's one of my favorites.

 

I'm X years old with Y years of experience.  The X and Y are variables and change from day to day.  Today I feel like X = 10 and Y = 58

X is typically never higher than 18 .

[Gregor 4,846]

This is with all safety switches are operating correctly. Brake/clutch pedal depressed. PTO off.

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

I got to looking around today while I smoked a salmon and investigated how the parking brake lever and brake bar work.  I loosened the bolt by the brake so that the parking brake could work.  And, I charged the battery up and connected the two solenoid bolts.  The starter whirred but that was all.  I think the battery might be old but it did register 12V.  So, the parking brake is "on".

Where is the safety switch located on the brake system.

And, I KNOW its a stupid question, but where might the PTO be?  I mean, on my machine, there is a bar on the right side of the gas tank that makes the belt that drives the snow blower engage so I am assuing THAT is my PTO.  Right?  So, it needs to be disengaged if there is a safety switch somewhere.

I ALSO have a mechanic buddy coming over tonight for wine and smoked salmon and I hope to talk him into showing me a few things.  I know HE will be able to use my volt meter to diagnose some things QUICK.

[Gregor 4,846]

We need pics !

33 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

connected the two solenoid bolts. 

???????

 

29 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

The starter whirred but that was all. 

It "whirred" but did not turn the motor?

 

34 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

And, I KNOW its a stupid question, but where might the PTO be?  I mean, on my machine, there is a bar on the right side of the gas tank that makes the belt that drives the snow blower engage so I am assuing THAT is my PTO.  Right?  So, it needs to be disengaged if there is a safety switch somewhere.

I have never worked on a B but it sounds like that is your PTO (power take off) lever.

 

This is the PTO switch on my C series. Located on the starboard side of the battery.

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,043]

Suspect both switches will be this one. Click on the picture to enlarge.

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

The PTO is the gray bar that ends at the muffler.  I'll take another picture soon.

 

This is the parking brake that can now be set once I did some adjusting.

On 12/21/2021 at 3:37 AM, ebinmaine said:

It would be helpful to us if you could post some pics. 

What do you want pics of?  I just added a BUNCH to my profile but I can and will take a pic of whatever you want to see to help me out.

Strictly define "got nothing". 

Nothing at all happened.  Someone told me to put a wire between the two posts on the solenoid and something "whirred" quietly.  I think the starter?  But nothing more and it slowed quickly.  I think my battery might be bad.

No power anywhere?

Not that I can detect although the battery does register 12V on my meter.

Engine turns but won't start?

I don't think, technically, the engine was turning over when I used the wires to connect the two posts of the solenoid.  I think the starter just spun a bit and whirred.

Remember these are DC systems. 

Direct Current. No ground means no circuit. 

I get that and cleaned everything I could.

Do you have a volt meter or test light ?

Yes.  I think the key switch is bad.  Its REALLY rusty.

Have you REMOVED and cleaned ALL the wires one by one to verify good connection?

As many as I could find.

Your B100 does have a parking brake whether it's a manual or automatic, of sorts. 

I found it but it is manual.  To the left between my legs when I am sitting.  See the image above.

If it's a manual transmission it'll be obvious with a literal brake drum on the side of the transmission. 

Yep.  I have an JD 100 and it looks just like that brake.

There will be safety switches on the left pedal and the PTO. 

I will check again but I don' think so.  My PTO is just a simple pivoting lever that I pull with my right hand to engage the belt on the right.

 

IMHO try to CLEAN the points if they're original. Not replace them.  OE Kohler points can and do last decades.  

Got it!  Just remove the points cover and spray it with carb cleaner and pressurized air?

 

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:46 PM, gwest_ca said:

Suspect both switches will be this one. Click on the picture to enlarge.

Thanks.  I will try my best to find something that looks like that.

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

On 12/21/2021 at 1:14 PM, Gregor said:

This is with all safety switches are operating correctly. Brake/clutch pedal depressed. PTO off.

Thanks.  My brake and clutch pedals are on opposite sides but I am assuming they are attached somehow under the machine.

I think you drew in lines to help me test with my volt meter but your shorthand doesn't make sense to me.  Are those things below to be done separately?  in any certain order?  

Can you explain a bit more?  I KNOW I need to do some sort of sequenced check with my volt meter to diagnose the issue but haven't written down the steps yet.  I like the pic though and will look for all of those wires.

 

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

3 minutes ago, ecojoe69 said:

The PTO is the gray bar that ends at the muffler.  I'll take another picture soon.

 

Well... not exactly...  that bar is just the rod that engages and dis-engages the PTO.

 

PTO means "Power Take Off"

 

The stuff circled in yellow is your PTO assembly:

 

 

When you engage the PTO, the rod you mentioned is pulled backward, which rocks the curved bar inward, which pushes the PTO pulley against the PTO clutch, which spins the pulley and runs whatever implement you have attached.

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:36 AM, 953 nut said:

Can I get a copy of the manual that this image came from?  I think its going to help me understand a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

3 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

When you engage the PTO, the rod you mentioned is pulled backward, which rocks the curved bar inward, which pushes the PTO pulley against the PTO clutch, which spins the pulley and runs whatever implement you have attached.

Got it!  So, where is the switch that might keep the key from not working?  Or, do I not really need to know where it is as long as I assure that the PTO is NOT engaged when I try and start the machine?  Still trying to figure out why I am getting nothing when I turn it over but DO get at least a bit of a whir when I arc the two bolts on the solenoid.