Murray to IH 1568

[ebinmaine 67,422]

14 minutes ago, JPWH said:

I tend to overbuild as well but the added weight helps for ground engaging implements. Win win.

Jay

Absolutely agreed. Same here but for heavy towing.

 

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

As mentioned in another topic I wanted to upgrade the brakes, maybe go independent brakes. The original brakedisc is mounted to the tranny and measures about 8" and uses a mechanical caliper. I've upgraded to two 10" discs and plan on running hydraulic calipers.

 

Also added some reinforcement to the rear 3-point in the form of an extra bracket.

Should be sturdy enough.

Edited April 16, 2022 by sjoemie himself
Added photo

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Made the tower for the toplink and the upper pivot. Also found a helium tank for party balloons and repurposed it. This will become the hydraulic tank. Bought a breather cap and welded it on. I'll wait with welding the rest of the fittings on until I get the pump in place. I've ordered two 3/4" weld on fittings for the feed and return lines. I'm hoping those are big enough?

That's all for now.

 

 

[Oldskool 6,643]

Thats looking quite stout.

Nice use of the helium tank by the way.

[JPWH 6,033]

8 hours ago, sjoemie himself said:

I've ordered two 3/4" weld on fittings for the feed and return lines. I'm hoping those are big enough?

When I built the hydraulic lift for my custom 12 6 speed I used 1/2" for the supply and 3/4" for the return to the canister filter. The in tank screen filter required an 1 1/2".

Build is in Raider 12 Modifications 

Edited April 24, 2022 by JPWH

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

3 hours ago, JPWH said:

When I built the hydraulic lift for my custom 12 6 speed I used 1/2" for the supply and 3/4" for the return to the canister filter. The in tank screen filter required an 1 1/2".

Build is in Raider 12 Modifications 

 Thanks! Interesting build. I like your hydraulic tank and the foot controls. I'm not sure i'll have enough room to incorporate foot controls but I do like the idea 

[ebinmaine 67,422]

10 hours ago, Oldskool said:

 

Nice use of the helium tank by the way.

"Use what ya have". 

 

I like it.  

 

 

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

20 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Use what ya have

 

Keeps the cost under control.. well.. sort of anyways 

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Calling on all hydraulic experts! I've got four hydraulic pumps to choose from but unfortunately haven't been able to find much information on either of them.

Can someone enlighten me with either the specs of (one of) these or their vote on which pump they would use on their tractor?

Engine that will be driving the pump is an 18hp briggs. I would like the pump to handle the rear 3 point and atleast one external valve for a tipping trailer. When possible a hydraulic pto or dual external valves for turning an implement would be great.

Pictures and measurements of my options are below.

 

All input is very much appreciated!

 

pump 1

 

 

Pump 2

 

Pump 3

 

Pump 4

Edited April 28, 2022 by sjoemie himself
Added info

[WHX?? 48,814]

Striking out here on any of those numbers as well. Found abit on that Bosch but no specs. Does it have a tapered shaft?

Sure would be nice to see the specs on the one you use. Maybe one of the other fellas will have better luck. 

[Handy Don 12,213]

I would try to start with the the loads and volumes. For that, you'll need the sizes of all the cylinders (piston diameters and throws) and the forces they'll be expected to exert. You'll also have to estimate the lengths of hoses/tubing involved.

 

For example, a big cylinder or long might be able to exert a lot of force or have useful throw but with a small pump it will take a long time to fill!

 

As for the pumps, there are three key specs: volume per revolution , maximum working pressure, and max RPM.

 

You could test for the volume by hand (prime the pump and then count the hand-turned revolutions needed to transfer a set volume of oil from one container to another).

 

Max pressure is likely in the range of 1000-2000 psi but that is strictly a guess. The physical characteristics of the pump have very little to do with pressure.

And don't forget, in your design, a pressure relief valve--you need the specs to be sure.

 

Max RPM is also going to come from specs.

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

@WHX?? and @Handy Don I had a bit of a 'eureka' moment and found some specs of the Bosch pumps:

 

Pump 2:

• Max. working pressure 250 bar/3600 psi
• Volume per revolution 16cc or 0.97 ci
• Max. rpm 3500
• Min. rpm 800
• Rotation counterclockwise

Pump 3:

• Max. working pressure 250 bar/ 3600 psi
• Volume per rotation 19cc or 1.15 ci
• Max. rpm 2000
• Min. rpm 1000
• Rotation counterclockwise

A while ago I ordered the plans from PF engineering for one of his FEL. He suggests using a pump with 4 to 8 gpm, that is about 15 to 30 l/min.

 

With some math added to my pump specs I get this:

 

16cc per rev. @ 3200 rpm = 51.200 cc/min (51 l.min or 13.5 gpm)

19cc per rev. @ 3200 rpm = 60.800 cc/min (61 l/min or 16 gpm)

 

Taking into account that a front end loader uses a lot more cylinders, aka. oil that needs displacing, it seems that even with the smaller pump I could reduce the input rpm on the pump to about half the engine speed and still have plenty oil??

 

[Handy Don 12,213]

2 hours ago, sjoemie himself said:

Taking into account that a front end loader uses a lot more cylinders, aka. oil that needs displacing, it seems that even with the smaller pump I could reduce the input rpm on the pump to about half the engine speed and still have plenty oil??

 

Good find.

 

In your math for pump 3 you meant to use the 2000 RPM max and not 3200, right? That would change the resulting 61 L/minute to 38 L/minute or about 10 gpm. Running it a bit below max gets you to the 8 gpm target easily.

 

Clearly, pumps 2 and 3 both exceed the minimum requirements, though.

 

As for the rest, there are a lot of factors in hydraulics:

1. Running the lowest practical pressure puts the least strain on the equipment. The max pressure is governed by the pressure relief valve. Typically, these can be adjusted within a range where the maximum is twice the minimum (e.g. 1000-2000 or 1500-3000)

 

2. The area of the piston face and the max system pressure determine the max force a cylinder can exert. The force needed comes from calculating the weights being moved--both of the equipment itself and its payload--and the leverage built into the mechanism (you get to exercise all that geometry and trigonometry from high school). Most FELs have dual cylinders for both lift and curl/dump to share the loads. The 3-point usually has a single cylinder. Extend force is equal to the area of the piston face times the working pressure (remembering dual-cylinder where appropriate). Retract force is lower because the piston shaft reduces the piston area (3.14 sq. in. down to 2.36 sq. in. for a 2" piston with a 1" shaft).

 

3. The volume comes into play when seeing how long a movement takes (i.e. extending or retracting a cylinder). For example on a dual-cylinder FEL lift, multiply the combined areas of the two lift pistons times the length of their throw. A pair of two-inch x 24 inch cylinders have a volume of about 150 cubic inches (π x 1^2 x 24 x 2) or about 0.65 gallons. At 8 gpm, filling them for a full lift would take about 5 seconds (.65 ÷ 8 x 60).

 

Have your eyes glazed over yet? 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Handy Don

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

for pump 3 you meant to use the 2000 RPM max and not 3200, right?

 

Correct! I used the same (max) engine speed for both and didn't look at the max. pump rpm.

 

About the flow.. would it hurt to have more than enough of it and use a valve to regulate max. flow? I can imagine that would result in excessive heat?

My lift cylinder in pretty small, about 1-1/2" 1-3/4" diameter and a 8 to 10" long.

I'm almost worried that the 3 point will move to fast with that much gpm

[Handy Don 12,213]

16 hours ago, sjoemie himself said:

About the flow.. would it hurt to have more than enough of it and use a valve to regulate max. flow? I can imagine that would result in excessive heat?

My lift cylinder in pretty small, about 1-1/2" 1-3/4" diameter and a 8 to 10" long.

I'm almost worried that the 3 point will move to fast with that much gpm

 

You are on the right track with your thinking for both volume and heat.

 

On the Eaton hydro WH tractors the lift circuit pump is ~1.3 gpm and with the single small cylinder the lift takes about 1.5 seconds! You can feather the control, but it is a frustrating experience to try moving it by small amounts. Clearly WH intended it to be a simple "up and down" system, not for fine control.

 

Remember that your hydraulics will be on a big circuit. When all the controls are in neutral, the fluid simply circulates from the reservoir, through the pump, through all the "open center" control valves, through the filter, and back to the reservoir. Diverting the flow into a cylinder using a control is what causes the extend/retract action. In light use like yours, the sufficient heat dissipates out of the plumbing, that is the hoses, tubes, valves, cylinders, and the body of the reservoir (typically a metal tank). Large heavy equipment normally adds a separate fanned radiator into the circuit to remove the hydro oil heat. Heat won't be your issue.

 

You will have a challenge by having both large (or dual) and small cylinders. You want the robust flow for the large ones to keep the movement times reasonable (a 10 second FEL lift time will seem like forever ). You might want a much lesser flow for the small one if you need fine control. There are ways to address this with a combination of flow control valves and actuator control valves using a "power beyond" capability without causing excess heat or pump/relief valve loading--unfortunately, they will add somewhat to the complexity of the plumbing and to the budget. I can get into this if you think the 3-point needs finer control than a quick "up and down".

 

BTW, does either Pump 3 or Pump 2 have built-in pressure relief? Do you already have any control valves you plan to use?

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Handy Don

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

On the Eaton hydro WH tractors the lift circuit pump is ~1.3 gpm and with the single small cylinder the lift takes about 1.5 seconds! You can feather the control, but it is a frustrating experience to try moving it by small amounts.

 

Well in that case 13 or 16 gpm is waaaayyy too much. I'll end up with a catapult or rocket launcher instead of a rear 3 point 

 

About the heat.. I will not worry about that then. Don't know if it was you or someone else who pointed that out before. 

 

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

challenge by having both large (or dual) and small cylinders

 

I think the smart thing there would be to have enough flow for the big cylinder and regulate the flow to the small cylinder with a flow control valve.

 

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

does either Pump 3 or Pump 2 have built-in pressure relief? Do you already have any control valves you plan to use?

 Don't know, and maybe?? See picture below

 

We have a site in the Netherlands called 'marktplaats' or marketplace. That is where I buy most of my components.

 

I enjoy the bidding but especially picking up stuff like this and meeting and chatting with the people who sell the stuff. Mostly those are 'my kind' of people, fellow hobbyists or tinkerers or whatever you may call them.

 

Almost forgot.. visited two company's today and the last one seemed to be 'the' place. Shelves full of hydraulic components and the people looked like they knew what they were talking about.

They said the Bosch pumps are probably too big and advised to use the Sunstrand one. They're gonna check out the pump to see if they can change the rotation and if there's a bearing-block available to be able to drive the pump with a pulley.

Also left my cylinder so they can quote me what it would cost to rebuild it with some new seals.

Edited April 29, 2022 by sjoemie himself
Added info

[Handy Don 12,213]

I am delighted you are having fun with this!

 

If you will have an FEL with large-ish cylinders, you'll want at least 5-6 gpm at reasonable pressure (~1000 psi).

 

For slower movements by a small cylinder in that system, I'd look for an open-center valve with "power beyond". This kind of valve has an input port ("P"), ports for the two hoses to the cylinder ("A" and "B", for extend and retract, respectively), a port for fluid to flow back to the reservoir directly ("T") and the "Power Beyond" port (often an "N"). The main fluid flow is from "P" to "N" and the FEL controls would be plumbed after (or "downstream" from) this control. Activating this control sends fluid out through either the A or B port to the cylinder (the displaced fluid from the cylinder comes back through the other port).  After the fluid returns from the cylinder to the valve, it exits through the T port (which needs its own direct connection to the reservoir). So this is where it gets interesting. By putting a flow control valve in this direct connection after the T port and before the reservoir, you can throttle the flow of fluid through the small cylinder!

 

With this outline, folks with a good understanding of hydraulics will understand what you are trying to do, speak the Dutch equivalent of "Aha!", and be able to help you in detail!

 

Good luck

Edited May 2, 2022 by Handy Don

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Thanks! I'm enjoying every bit of it. Never done a project like this and i'm learning a lot.

 

About the valves and flow controls and what not, I was following along nicely but now you've lost me a bit  especially the part about flow control áfter the T-port 

 

I might not have expressed myself clearly earlier on but i'm not planning on building a FEL for this tractor. Main goal is to get the 3 point going and have a external valve for a tipping trailer. Once that works i'll see what more trouble I can get myself into.

Open-center valve i'll need no matter what if I understand correctly for the 3 point.

 

Anyways.. I'm hoping I get a call from the hydraulic shop tomorrow with a not to bad of a quote for the pump and cylinder rebuild.

Also have been bidding on a telescopic cylinder for a tipper. With a bit of luck I'll receive that in the mail somewhere at the end of this week.

Edited May 2, 2022 by sjoemie himself
Typo, thanks to lovely auto-correct

[Handy Don 12,213]

20 hours ago, sjoemie himself said:

not planning on building a FEL for this tractor

Ah, my error for not reading the first post more carefully (or my dim memory--equally possible).

 

The tipper cylinder will have more volume than the 3-point cylinder, especially if it is a telescoping unit. Still, it will be smaller by itself than either pair of cylinders that would be on an FEL and having a lift time of 5-8 seconds would give you good control. I think you will need only 1-2 gpm of flow and pressure may be as low as 750 psi. You will not need a fancy "power beyond" valve or a flow control valve (hooray).

 

My approach would be to set the pulley sizes from engine to pump so that the pump only turns fast enough to give 1-2 gpm output instead of the much higher output of which it is capable at higher RPM. This way you do not need a flow control valve and the lift times will not be too quick. It will still give full pressure at that speed when it encounters resistance from either cylinder's load.

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Thanks again. I've had somekind of a eureka-moment regarding the flow of the pump.

As you said I can play with pulley sizes to get the flow that I want.

One of the Bosch pumps has a working range between 800 and 3500 rpm, so anything in between that range is fine.

Only issue is that I would have to fit a very large pulley to the pump to get the rpm coming from the engine low enough to reduce the pump to about 1000 rpm. Another option would be a jackshaft.. 

 

Sadly I didn't hear from the hydraulic shop yet so i'll have to wait a little bit more before I can start mocking up the pump.

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Mailman came through with my cylinder today. It's a little bigger than expected but that an okay problem to have.

Sadly did not hear from the hydraulic shop all week so I couldn't work on the pump setup today.

 

Pictures below of the cylinder for the upcoming tipping trailer.

 

 

[Handy Don 12,213]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:30 PM, sjoemie himself said:

Pictures below of the cylinder for the upcoming tipping trailer

VERY cool!

Having the telescoping cylinder lets you avoid a complex (and hence strong and heavy) scissor or lever mechanism for hoisting the trailer.

You can calculate the volume of the extended cylinder and use your expected pump volume to arrive at a likely "lift time".

Also, it looks like that cylinder is powered only for extend (the retract is by gravity or other external force on the lifted body). Be sure to take that into account when setting up the plumbing and valve, and when thinking of how it will operate.

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Thanks Don. I'm pretty pleased with the cylinder aswell. It was bought sight unseen and although it's bigger than I thought I think it will work fine.

 

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

powered only for extend

 

Correct! It's a single acting cylinder. Should be enough for my build. In case it doesn't 'return' all the way or not fast enough I can always add a spring or something.. but we'll cross that bridge when we get there

[sjoemie himself 3,068]

Brace yourself.. bracing incoming.

Made several braces to beef up everything and connect the exsisting  frame to the subframe for the 3 point hitch. The 'tower' for the toplink gets bolted to a plate which also doubles as the seat mounting base. This plate connects to a u- channel which bolts to both the frame and the steering column. Should be okay-sturdy 

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,422]

3 hours ago, sjoemie himself said:

Should be okay-sturdy

I should say!