engine swap

[ebinmaine 68,887]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Which causes me to doubt the anecdotal commentary that "garden tractor hydros aren't good for ground-engaging work".

 

My impression of that phrase has always been more of a person's desire not to constantly adjust the speed.

 

With the push and pull of something like a rototiller changing quite often on/in variable ground I can certainly understand why I would get irritated very very quickly by needing to constantly adjust the motion control of a hydro to keep a consistent speed as the ground was slowing me down and letting me speed up a bit.

 

I don't think I'd even put serious consideration to putting a tiller in the ground unless it was behind an 8-speed but that's just me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, RED-Z06 said:

changed directions so hard that it broke a spring...destroyed the pump

 

That's an issue with forklifts occasionally as well. One of the companies I worked for in the past they replaced more than one forklift transmission because the drivers would switch from/to forward or reverse by simply doing a J strip. No brakes.

 

It's a Standard Operating Procedure to come to a complete stop for at least a split second before changing direction.

 

One of the safety and maintenance guys said to us:

"Think, brakes cheap. Transmission expensive."

😂

[Handy Don 12,663]

1 hour ago, RED-Z06 said:

it on a Z turn with the dampeners missing

Duh, remove a critical component and then be surprised when the machine fails?! 

My Eaton 1100 (520 chassis) has a temp sensor on the transaxle just below the fan. I tried to research it to learn what temperature triggers it but no luck.

 

One point you made earlier is confusing me.

I agree that when an engine-hydro pump pair are running at the engine's best torque speed that the hydro can deliver its max torque output at any speed from zero to its design limits.

For a geared tractor, that same engine speed corresponds to one ground speed per gear. But at each of those gear-speeds, it has the same (or arguably more, due to lower internal friction) torque as the hydro. Also, the torque drop-off of the engine at somewhat higher or lower RPM (as well as the design RPM limits) affects the practicality of adjusting engine speed to change ground speed closer to that of an adjacent gear, right?

Were you trying to point out that while remaining in one gear and seeking to vary ground speed away from that gear's "optimum", one must vary engine speed away from its ideal torque-producing rate? If yes, I see that. It is one of the tradeoffs between lots of closely-spaced gears (costly and big gearbox!) and a hydro (a valve).

 

BTW, some years back as a consultant to Case Corp. I got to test ride one of their flagship farm tractors. The transmission had 40 gears in either direction (10 speeds, 4 ranges, Forward/Reverse) controlled using three levers.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Handy Don

[Handy Don 12,663]

11 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

My impression of that phrase has always been more of a person's desire not to constantly adjust the speed.

 

With the push and pull of something like a rototiller changing quite often on/in variable ground I can certainly understand why I would get irritated very very quickly by needing to constantly adjust the motion control of a hydro to keep a consistent speed as the ground was slowing me down and letting me speed up a bit.

This would make a neat, and perhaps enlightening, experiment.

 

My hydro "locks up" just like a geared tractor once the motion lever is away from neutral (my evidence is that it "engine brakes" on steep downhills and the governor raises the engine power on uphills--just like a geared tractor).

 

Perhaps someone can share direct experience with speed varying unacceptably while tilling or plowing using a hydro vs. the capability of easy fine speed adjustment at an optimum engine speed/torque.

 

 

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,277]

58 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Duh, remove a critical component and then be surprised when the machine fails?! 

My Eaton 1100 (520 chassis) has a temp sensor on the transaxle just below the fan. I tried to research it to learn what temperature triggers it but no luck.

 

One point you made earlier is confusing me.

I agree that when an engine-hydro pump pair are running at the engine's best torque speed that the hydro can deliver its max torque output at any speed from zero to its design limits.

For a geared tractor, that same engine speed corresponds to one ground speed per gear. But at each of those gear-speeds, it has the same (or arguably more, due to lower internal friction) torque as the hydro. Also, the torque drop-off of the engine at somewhat higher or lower RPM (as well as the design RPM limits) affects the practicality of adjusting engine speed to change ground speed closer to that of an adjacent gear, right?

Were you trying to point out that while remaining in one gear and seeking to vary ground speed away from that gear's "optimum", one must vary engine speed away from its ideal torque-producing rate? If yes, I see that. It is one of the tradeoffs between lots of closely-spaced gears (costly and big gearbox!) and a hydro (a valve).

 

BTW, some years back as a consultant to Case Corp. I got to test ride one of their flagship farm tractors. The transmission had 40 gears in either direction (10 speeds, 4 ranges, Forward/Reverse) controlled using three levers.

I always assume the engine is running at rated speed while working for optimum engine cooling and to prevent harmful lugging.

 

Think of a hydro as 2 components bolted together, a pump that turns engine power into hydraulic pressure then hydraulic pressure into energy at the output gear which, acts directly upon the 2nd component, the final drive (the unidrive case).  The Hydro can provide a constant torque pressure to the final drive input from 0 rpms (think breakout speed) and at full rpms.   Whereas with the gears you have 3 options (or 6) for speed or torque.  If you are plowing and you would like more speed on a hydro you would need only to bump the lever forward..more ground speed without a loss of mechanical advantage, but with a gear drive you are in say..2nd high and you need more speed you can go up to 3rd Hi which may or may not be too fast...but your mechanical advantage is going to drop..the engine will feel smaller.

 

The engine is governed, so with the hydro if there is more power drawn, your governor will compensate, same as a gear drive.

 

[RED-Z06 2,277]

53 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

This would make a neat, and perhaps enlightening, experiment.

 

My hydro "locks up" just like a geared tractor once the motion lever is away from neutral (my evidence is that it "engine brakes" on steep downhills and the governor raises the engine power on uphills--just like a geared tractor).

 

Perhaps someone can share direct experience with speed varying unacceptably while tilling or plowing using a hydro vs. the capability of easy fine speed adjustment at an optimum engine speed/torque.

 

 

 

 

Ive plowed and tilled with my 416-H and my older 310-8.  The hydro is more convenient  for both because you can change speeds as needed on the fly without touching engine speeds, when tilling or plowing i usually set engine speed to about 3000, because the onan moves ample air to keep her cool.

[ebinmaine 68,887]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Perhaps someone can share direct experience with speed varying unacceptably while tilling or plowing using a hydro

I can't share direct experience tilling but I can tell you with the forklifts I use work there is definitely variability in speed based on load carried or degree of incline, decline.

 

I haven't driven very many hydrostatic garden tractors over the years. I've had 4? here at my house in recent times. 

The 417a with an Eaton I've really only driven on level ground so I can't speak for that one.

1970 Charger was very worn out so that one was like driving a fluid filled bottle of hopes and dreams that wasn't really going to work out. Going downhill from my front yard to the backyard I had to bring the speed control back almost to the point of zero to keep it held back.

The 1975 C160 Automatic that I now have is basically the same setup but not even remotely close to being the same type of tractor. It goes where it's supposed to go and only speeds up or slows down just a little bit.

 

[Handy Don 12,663]

3 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

The Hydro can provide a constant torque pressure to the final drive input from 0 rpms (think breakout speed) and at full rpms.   Whereas with the gears you have 3 options (or 6) for speed or torque.  If you are plowing and you would like more speed on a hydro you would need only to bump the lever forward..more ground speed without a loss of mechanical advantage, but with a gear drive you are in say..2nd high and you need more speed you can go up to 3rd Hi which may or may not be too fast...but your mechanical advantage is going to drop..the engine will feel smaller.

 

I'm up on the hydro technologies. And, frankly, I'm a fan.

 

The Eaton and Sunstrand hydro pumps are fixed displacement driving a fixed displacement motors through a "none-to-all" flow volume control valve. Torque generated to the drive train is in direct response to load; pump pressure increases as resistance to motion at the motor (load) increases, maxing at the design limits of the internal bypass valves or of the engine input (whichever is lower).

 

As one goes faster by bumping the lever, it increases the volume of fluid to the motor yielding a larger number of turns in the final drive. The Hydro isn't magical, though, it loses mechanical advantage just the same as a geared tractor--the engine needs to work harder to keep that pump turning at the same speed (work) because it is delivering a greater amount of same-pressure fluid to the motor (force) so the tractor can go farther in the same amount of time (displacement). Once the motor has reached its limit and the tractor's motion load becomes more than the engine-pump can keep up with, the engine feels smaller. (work = force x displacement)

Edited December 15, 2021 by Handy Don

[squonk 41,649]

On 12/13/2021 at 12:35 AM, APG2 said:

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

Probably more to do with a mis-adjusted governor and or throttle linkage.

[kpinnc 12,807]

8 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Perhaps someone can share direct experience with speed varying unacceptably while tilling or plowing using a hydro vs. the capability of easy fine speed adjustment at an optimum engine speed/torque.

 

 

Never tilled with it, but pulled cultivators and moldboard many times with my Bronco 14. Also pulled the same implements (and my tiller) with my 310-8. The Bronco worked well, but the governor was affected when digging deep. The 310-8 didn't flinch with the same tools in the same ground.

 

Nothing scientific of course, but loading the hydro most definitely corresponds with more required engine torque, even with 4 more hp.

[857lover 291]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:50 AM, ebinmaine said:

Gotcha. 

 

What's the need?

Faster tractor?

Better torque for implements?

 

An 857 is a short frame with a short hood so popping a big block in there is doable, but needs proper prep. 

 

 

A 10 horse really won't help much if at all. The extra weight of a big block might negate the gains in HP. 

 

Properly tuning you're own engine and maybe milling the head might help more than swapping out to a 10. 

 

ok so what if i put a k301 ?

[ebinmaine 68,887]

5 hours ago, 857lover said:

ok so what if i put a k301 ?

Provided the 12 is running well and tuned right that would be quite a noticable improvement. 

 

It's not an instant swap. 

The engine is too big to fit in the tractor so modifications would be necessary.

You'd either have to raise the hood and hood stand or build the engine specifically for the short hood/short frame. 

As mentioned earlier it would need to be a starter/generator engine or move the battery. 

Also need a different belt guard, I think. 

 

As much as I enjoy building and modifications you REALLY would be money and time ahead to find a 12 HP or larger tractor as a running machine. 

 

 

[Greentored 3,217]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:46 PM, ebinmaine said:

Yes shaving the cylinder head. 

I don't know the spec for maximum removal. 

If @Greentoredis on he can answer. 

Others will likely know as well. 

 

 

Ive never messed with the small block Kohlers, but yes, ANY lawn n garden type engine is going to benefit from shaving the head for a boost in compression, especially these old flatheads that were miserably low compression to start with.  -.050 is a pretty standard removal on the big blocks and many other small flattys, but before doing that make sure you have enough clearance between the valves and head using some clay. Try it without the head gasket, if it clears you know you can remove the thickness of a head gasket at minimum.  You can get away with .050-.060 clearance and be ok.