engine swap

[857lover 291]

i have a 857 with a k181 and i wanted to know if i could put a k301 the 12hp or a k241 the 10hp on the tractor with no frame modification 

[ebinmaine 68,888]

Tractor frame should be fine but you may have to get a shallow oil pan to fit under that hood.  

 

Why the desire to swap?

 

[pfrederi 18,004]

The new engine would have to be an S/G or you will have interference with battery box and the bendix starter.

[857lover 291]

9 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Tractor frame should be fine but you may have to get a shallow oil pan to fit under that hood.  

 

Why the desire to swap?

 

i am looking for a bit more power 

[ebinmaine 68,888]

58 minutes ago, 857lover said:

i am looking for a bit more power 

Gotcha. 

 

What's the need?

Faster tractor?

Better torque for implements?

 

An 857 is a short frame with a short hood so popping a big block in there is doable, but needs proper prep. 

 

 

A 10 horse really won't help much if at all. The extra weight of a big block might negate the gains in HP. 

 

Properly tuning you're own engine and maybe milling the head might help more than swapping out to a 10. 

 

[857lover 291]

25 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Gotcha. 

 

What's the need?

Faster tractor?

Better torque for implements?

 

An 857 is a short frame with a short hood so popping a big block in there is doable, but needs proper prep. 

 

 

A 10 horse really won't help much if at all. The extra weight of a big block might negate the gains in HP. 

 

Properly tuning you're own engine and maybe milling the head might help more than swapping out to a 10. 

 

yea i am looking for more power for my implements and i plan on using plow and you mean shaving the cylinderhead and how much can be taken off ? and i figured a little extra weight in thr front might be a little helpful for turning in the snow 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by 857lover

[ebinmaine 68,888]

For engine driven implements like a mower or tiller more power would help. 

For snow plowing it will not. 

 

8 horse is enough to move the tractor to push snow. 

To plow we need WEIGHT to get more TRACTION. 

 

 

Yes shaving the cylinder head. 

I don't know the spec for maximum removal. 

If @Greentoredis on he can answer. 

Others will likely know as well. 

 

 

[wallfish 17,114]

Nothing wrong with wanting more power but an 8 is typically plenty for plowing snow. That's what I use on an old 654 and the traction will loose bite before the engine grunts under load.

@pfrederi Paul already mention the issue with a regular gear start engine so a S/G start engine would definitely be a much better fit. The battery can be moved though.

Wrapping the front tires with #40 roller chain makes a huge difference in steering control while plowing snow.

There's lots of different ways to add weight.

[APG2 5]

10 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

For engine driven implements like a mower or tiller more power would help. 

For snow plowing it will not. 

 

8 horse is enough to move the tractor to push snow. 

To plow we need WEIGHT to get more TRACTION. 

 

 

Yes shaving the cylinder head. 

I don't know the spec for maximum removal. 

If @Greentoredis on he can answer. 

Others will likely know as well. 

 

 

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

Edited December 13, 2021 by APG2

[ebinmaine 68,888]

3 hours ago, APG2 said:

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

 

I'm curious to know the exact circumstances. What tractor? Was it in good mechanical condition? Was it weighted/ballasted correctly? What type of terrain?

Did it have a Limited Slip Differential?

 

For mowing I'd agree. 

I also agree that power can help plowing snow... but the ability to move snow with an older heavier tractor is FAR more about sticking the tractor to the ground. 

 

Pulling a "small wagon"?

I respectfully disagree. 

 

 

As mentioned in an above post a Wheelhorse will typically lose TRACTION looonng before the engine loses it's ability to move the machine. 

Lots of folks use 6 and 8 HP engines to plow snow. Some even use the RJ models with only 4 HP. 

 

For pulling loads or plowing SNOW we've had great experience with our 8 HP engines. They've treated us well. 

We live on the side of the White Mountains of Maine  and have no large level areas except right near the house. Our engines/tractors are all workers and they earn their keep. 

They are all well setup with weights and chains. All kept in good mechanical condition and properly tuned. 

 

I've had an 8 HP Kohler on a B80 and pulled over 1000 lbs of stone or gravel. 300 to 600 lbs of wood many times. Dragged medium sized tree trunks/sections. 

 

Trina has an 867 also with an 8 HP Kohler. 

She pulls several hundred lbs of wood on a VERY regular basis. 

She also uses her machine to grade the drive and plow snow. 

 

Trina's 867 all setup with weights and chains, plow on and her driving weighs less than 900 lbs. 

My '74 C160 8 speed is far heavier at around 1350 lbs total. 

Her tractor with it's Limited Slip Differential is nearly as capable as my Beast with one wheel drive. 

 

[RED-Z06 2,277]

I put a k181 in my 702...and hooked onto a Farmall C that had sat 13 years, pulled it out...front tires flat..rears soft, rear tires loaded and 150lbs of weights...got it going down the road in 2nd gear and had dad drop the clutch on the C to see if it built oil pressure...it was twisting the frame to the point one tire was touching and one was about 8" up in the air...did this for about 1300 feet until it built max oil pressure.  8hp is alot in a short frame tractor.

[pfrederi 18,004]

8 hours ago, APG2 said:

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

 

My 25+yr old 7hp Techy in my L-107 hauls about 750 lbs of coal up a grade  in 3rd with out any problems

Does OK hauling 2A stone also

Its all about traction

 

 

[Maxwell-8 4,359]

8 hours ago, APG2 said:

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

sounds like your K181 is underperforming. Is the aircleaner clean, is the carb tuned correctly? 

 

I once went 30mph with a 8hp pulley swapped mower from the scrapyard

Edited December 13, 2021 by Maxwell-8

[kpinnc 12,808]

The only thing that should rob much power from a K181 outside of a large mower or tiller or snowblower would be if the tractor is a hydro. Hydrostatics do tend to place a much larger load on the engine than gear drive. 

[ebinmaine 68,888]

1 hour ago, kpinnc said:

The only thing that should rob much power from a K181 outside of a large mower or tiller or snowblower would be if the tractor is a hydro. Hydrostatics do tend to place a much larger load on the engine than gear drive. 

Valid point there.

I've heard manual transmissions on Wheelhorses use one or two horsepower. Hydros use between two and four.

If you're using three or four horsepower and you have eight to start, there's not a lot left over...

 

[Handy Don 12,663]

20 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Valid point there.

I've heard manual transmissions on Wheelhorses use one or two horsepower. Hydros use between two and four.

If you're using three or four horsepower and you have eight to start, there's not a lot left over...

 

Might be overstating just a bit, there, IMHO. I'd put transmission losses at less than 1hp for gears and maybe 1.5 or 2 for hydro based on reading some research papers. One thing that comes out strongly is that you have to focus on friction, which is proportional to the force applied between the surfaces. Gear teeth rub and hydro pump/motor internals rub. It's the greater number of parts rubbing in the hydros (and to a far lesser degree fluid bypassing the pump or motor and not doing any work) that makes the difference.

 

There have been no well-documented head-to-head compares of losses that I've found. All that I've seen were two tractors in tug-o-war setups. Gears didn't always win -- one claimed the hydro "cheated" by "shifting" during the pull -- plus tires/ground surface/weight/etc. are too hard to equalize.

 

Should be noted that nearly all modern large farm equipment uses hydrostatic transmissions to gain OVERALL efficiency (fuel energy in vs. usable work out) as well as mechanical and control versatility.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Handy Don

[kpinnc 12,808]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

There have been no well-documented head-to-head compares of losses that I've found. All that I've seen were two tractors in tug-o-war setups. Gears didn't always win -- one claimed the hydro "cheated" by "shifting" during the pull -- plus tires/ground surface/weight/etc. are too hard to equalize.

 

I think where most tractors get into trouble is when rapid speed changes occur- loaded or not. Think of the difference between dumping the clutch in 3rd gear vs shoving a hydro lever wide open. The engine barely sees a RPM change dumping the clutch, but can nearly choke down with the hydro. 

 

There is a big difference in engine loads between the two. Going easy on a hydro so far as speed changes makes for much more even engine response. 

[Handy Don 12,663]

7 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I think where most tractors get into trouble is when rapid speed changes occur- loaded or not. Think of the difference between dumping the clutch in 3rd gear vs shoving a hydro lever wide open. The engine barely sees a RPM change dumping the clutch, but can nearly choke down with the hydro. 

 

There is a big difference in engine loads between the two. Going easy on a hydro so far as speed changes makes for much more even engine response. 

Yeah, this is interesting.

The belt must have some slippage in the gear tractor or else it'd have to just stall out. How much is hard to quantify, right?

Hydros have relief valves that shunt sudden internal excess pressure to lessen the chances of stalls and wheelies which is similar to the slippage scheme, but it isn't gradual--the valves are open or closed (one for forward and one for reverse).

I'm not sure what you mean by "choke down" and difference in engine loads. On my Eaton 1100-equpped tractor with 18hp, when I tried "slamming" it from stop to full forward while engine was at 3200-ish the engine grunted slightly, the hydro gave a bit of whine, the nose lifted a bit, and then it scooted like a scalded cat.

 

[kpinnc 12,808]

4 hours ago, Handy Don said:

On my Eaton 1100-equpped tractor with 18hp, when I tried "slamming" it from stop to full forward while engine was at 3200-ish the engine grunted slightly, the hydro gave a bit of whine, the nose lifted a bit, and then it scooted like a scalded cat.

 

Good point that I should clarify- Eatons seem much less torque hungry than Sundstrands. Both of the latter that I've used were 14hp Kohlers, and both are strong hydros. They really add quite a load on the engine if you make rapid inputs on the control lever. My Eatons seem like a much softer draw on engine RPM.

[Handy Don 12,663]

23 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

Good point that I should clarify- Eatons seem much less torque hungry than Sundstrands. Both of the latter that I've used were 14hp Kohlers, and both are strong hydros. They really add quite a load on the engine if you make rapid inputs on the control lever. My Eatons seem like a much softer draw on engine RPM.

Ah, now I understand (I think) where you are going. Not that the Sunstrand hydro is consuming horsepower, but that it's making a "hard" connection from engine to transaxle very quickly.  You can see how this relates to knowing the Sunstrand piston-to-piston hydros are immovable with the engine off unless the bypass valve is opened--direct, almost mechanical connection from engine to transaxle! Many Eaton's can be pushed (slowly)--I think this has to do with the direction of the internal relief valves and their setup.

[kpinnc 12,808]

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Ah, now I understand (I think) where you are going. Not that the Sunstrand hydro is consuming horsepower, but that it's making a "hard" connection from engine to transaxle very quickly.  You can see how this relates to knowing the Sunstrand piston-to-piston hydros are immovable with the engine off unless the bypass valve is opened--direct, almost mechanical connection from engine to transaxle! Many Eaton's can be pushed (slowly)--I think this has to do with the direction of the internal relief valves and their setup.

 

I should further clarify that mine are the very old "Hydrogear" version of Sundstrand. I've never had any of the later models, so I can't say they are any better or worse. 

[Elkskin's mower junkyard 1,117]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:35 PM, APG2 said:

A K181 pretty much struggles to do anything more than mowing a small yard or pulling a small wagon, I had one. Power definitely does help with plowing snow

sounds like you needed a valve job on that unit. i once did a botched valve job on a k160 by putting valve in my drill and ground them against a grinding stone (do not do this i only did it for a experiement, i usually just take my valves to taryl fixes all for resurfacing) to my surprise that thing had alot more umph than before. the engine itself was just plum wore out smoked like a freight train but still had more power than a tecumseh h70

[RED-Z06 2,277]

The law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another.

 

Hydros also turn energy into heat, any energy not being made directly into motion/torque is wasted as heat.

 

Gas contains X amount of potential energy..the gas is burned and the byproducts are Heat,C0², and kinetic energy stored in the rotating assembly.  Anywhere you have friction, rod, piston, crank bearings, combustion, where heat is created, this is energy lost...converted to heat and Not Kinetic energy.  That energy is transfered down the belt which rubs the pulleys and their bearings, and the belts internal fibers create friction and heat.  Thus power is lost.  Then into the trans.  A gear drive has minimal friction, because there is very little heat produced however you do have the limiting factor of gear reductions...and rpm. The higher you go in gear the less mechanical advantage you have...the lower thr gear, you can do more work but slower.  You also have the effect of a clutch..being either Slipping or engaged in any gear, if you are in 2nd Hi and you need more wheel speed but not lose your level of torque you are screwed.

 

Hydro pumps create quite a bit of heat, even in Neutral, the pistons never stop pumping, and the oil gets hot fast, hydros hoever have the advantage of infinitely variable speed at peak torque, so my final drive advantage is "fixed' and the hydro just detemines how much pressure i put against it..it can push just as hard at 0 rpm as it can at 100 rpm...up to the point something gives or you reach maximum pump pressure and it bypasses or slips the belt.

[Handy Don 12,663]

7 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

hydros however have the advantage of infinitely variable speed at peak torque

Which causes me to doubt the anecdotal commentary that "garden tractor hydros aren't good for ground-engaging work".

[RED-Z06 2,277]

7 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Which causes me to doubt the anecdotal commentary that "garden tractor hydros aren't good for ground-engaging work".

The only negative to ground engaging a hydro is heat...the constant high load gets them incredibly hot, the heat coming off my hydro fan while plowing a 5000sqft plot with my 416-H is noticeable, but it doesn't seem to mind too terribly much.  The only time you'll really hurt a hydro is is you get air in the pump, or "float the pistons" which is basically a rapid suddenly high load that actually causes the pistons to bounce...it can break a spring or scar the head.  Never done it myself but have seen it on a Z turn with the dampeners missing...he changed directions so hard that it broke a spring...destroyed the pump.