Balance gear end play

[moe1965 738]

I'm tearing down a 301 for a rebuild.  Is there a tollarance for balance gear end play.  Also are the needle bearings supposed to fall out of the race 

Edited December 10, 2021 by moe1965
More info

[oliver2-44 9,750]

The end play on balance gears is as far as you can throw them. Most of use remove them and leave them out. If the needles are falling out it was about to grenade a hole in the side of the block. You got to it just in time. 

[moe1965 738]

Remove the balance gears???????   Doesnt that keep the crank in balance????? If you can leave them out will it self destruct something else???? What was the reason for them in the first place????? I'm confused and all about leaving them out if it will not self destruct sd of thing else.   

[953 nut 55,229]

1 hour ago, moe1965 said:

Also are the needle bearings supposed to fall out of the race

Quick, go out and buy a Lottery Ticket!           Anyone lucky enough to get the Grenade gears out just in time has got to win.        

[953 nut 55,229]

3 minutes ago, moe1965 said:

Remove the balance gears???????   Doesnt that keep the crank in balance????? If you can leave them out will it self destruct something else???? What was the reason for them in the first place????? I'm confused and all about leaving them out if it will not self destruct sd of thing else.   

Read this and other posts about them.

u

[WHX?? 48,815]

 That seems to be the consensus. That bearing seems to fail more often leading us to this conclusion. .. not the quite enough designed splash to keep thar bearing lubed. When you are having fine seat time I guess you will ever notice the difference. 

1 hour ago, moe1965 said:

Remove the balance gears???????   Doesnt that keep the crank in balance????? If you can leave them out will it self destruct something else???? What was the reason for them in the first place????? I'm confused and all about leaving them out if it will not self destruct sd of thing else.

Yes....yes... no... trying to build a better mouse trap ..no 

Just leave then out Moe..... best bet but here's the deal.... do the rest of the motor to specs and you will be good to go. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by WHX??

[pacer 3,169]

Oh yes, I can imagine your .... shock? at hearing us talk about removing them....... but, that link that @953 nut gave should give enough info to feel better about taking them out. If that still dont convince you, the go to the search on here and type in 'balance gears' cause there are literally dozens of posts about removing them. And, yes there are a ,.,,,, relatively small group that likes to leave them, but that is definitely not the majority.

 

So another 'go for it' here. As @WHX??  sez, go on and get the rest of the engine in good condition and give thanks that you got to them before ..... well, its not a pretty site when they go!

[WHX?? 48,815]

Right on  Pacer.... just ditch them Moe.... I read the manual 100 times and still have to figured out how to intall and time them. 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

I will add here boys... it is unnecessary to remove the bearings if you remove the balance gears. Those bearings are pressed in and aren't goin' nowheres...

 

Don

[kpinnc 12,031]

I'll say this: On rare occasion, Kohlers will throw a rod and quit. If the balance gears weren't the culprit, the engine is more often than not- completely salvageable. On the other hand- If the balance gear let go, the block often gets an unwanted window installed, and the crank is damaged beyond repair. 

 

Point being: if you remove the balance gears, and keep the oil pan full of oil- you'll have about the most bulletproof engine available. Not indestructible, but about as close as you can get.

Edited December 11, 2021 by kpinnc

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

7 hours ago, moe1965 said:

are the needle bearings supposed to fall out of the race 

 

6 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

If the needles are falling out it was about to grenade a hole in the side of the block.

 

6 hours ago, 953 nut said:

buy a Lottery Ticket! 

 

From the K series service manual:

 

 

Depending on the age of the engine, it could be completely normal for the needles to fall out!

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

8 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

Those bearings are pressed in and aren't goin' nowheres...

 

Pressed in what? The bearings are in the balance gears, and slide onto the shafts, or so I thought. At least mine were. I think.

[Gregor 4,846]

4 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

 

 

From the K series service manual:

 

 

Depending on the age of the engine, it could be completely normal for the needles to fall out!

The first time I tore down a Lawn Boy motor, and all the needles fell out, I thought I had a pile of scrap metal. Turns out new CAGED bearings were available. The rod bearing though is different. It is not caged. You have to get all the needles to stay put, and reassemble. The outer race is in 2 pieces, and there are 29 needles.

[squonk 41,113]

This is what was in my oil pan. Piston skirt and a gear needle:

 

 

Piston out:

 

Needle bearing after gear is out:

 

 

Jeff one thing you can do that's easy and cheap is pull the head and see how much slop is in the piston. This vid shows mine before I took out the piston:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by squonk

[pfrederi 17,739]

4 hours ago, Gregor said:

Pressed in what? The bearings are in the balance gears, and slide onto the shafts, or so I thought. At least mine were. I think.

Design changed over time...

[kpinnc 12,031]

7 hours ago, Gregor said:

Pressed in what? The bearings are in the balance gears, and slide onto the shafts, or so I thought.

 

The races are pressed in, but the needles aren't caged in the races. I assume that was to allow oil to reach the bearings easier.

 

I guess mine weren't as worn as I thought, but I'm still glad to have them out.

Edited December 11, 2021 by kpinnc

[Snoopy11 5,714]

7 hours ago, Gregor said:

Pressed in what? The bearings are in the balance gears, and slide onto the shafts, or so I thought. At least mine were. I think.

My bad, I was thinking of a different engine. Thanks buddy! 

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,714]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Design changed over time...

Yeah, sometimes without pictures... engines become a turbo-clog in my mind...  

 

Don

[moe1965 738]

Thanks for all your info. I did a lot of reading up on the balance gears and if I read one article correctly you could get a brand new engine without them from a dealer and it wouldn't effect the warranty.   Some were even assembled without them from the factory.  I'm going to leave them out but do I need to remove these pins or just leave them in.   Thanks again.

[kpinnc 12,031]

Leave the pins. Won't affect anything at all, but they have to be there to seal the holes in the block.

Edited December 11, 2021 by kpinnc

[Snoopy11 5,714]

5 hours ago, squonk said:

how much slop is in the piston

Piston slop should cause smoke and lack of power. (not saying it will in every case, but overtime, these symptoms should accompany). 

 

Don

[squonk 41,113]

No smoke or power loss on my engine. Just noise

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 hours ago, squonk said:

No smoke or power loss on my engine. Just noise

 

Same here.

 

[Wheelhorse#1 1,657]

https://youtube.com/shorts/rMQy2qG25jc?feature=share

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Wheelhorse#1

[Bill D 1,921]

There are options for a better balanced reciprocating assembly.  Option one is a balance plate from David Kirk of Kirk engines.  Option two is to send the crank to @Greentored to be balanced.  Scott did it on one of his own builds.  It will lessen vibration according to all the articles I have read.  JD made Kohler leave the balance gears out of their engines, but they did mount their engines on shaker plates.