D250 wrong direction

[lroudebush 0]

Alrighty Gents,  I need some help.  I got an engine back from the rebuilder.   Please dont ask about that until I understand root cause.  The engine rotated in wrong direction.  Replaced the starter to correct.   Water pump was wrong as well.  Starter now rotates correct, but distributor rotates incorrectly.  Pulled distributor and the gear is still rotating incorrectly.   Am I looking at a wrong cam shaft?  I rotated by hand in the proper direction and confirmed, 1 cycl top dead then #3 top dead.   I need ideas from those smarter than me.  Thanks.
Larry

[Gregor 4,846]

I know nothing about this, but, what makes you think the distributor is rotating in the wrong direction?

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Gregor

[Achto 27,601]

46 minutes ago, lroudebush said:

 The engine rotated in wrong direction.  Replaced the starter to correct.

 

Confused.  If you used the same starter that was on the engine to begin with, then how could it spin the engine backwards? Unless you mistakenly hooked the battery cables up backwards.  When looking at the front of the engine, it should turn clockwise. The distributor should drive off from the cam shaft, it may turn counter clock wise or clock wise depending on how things are configured, ( gear to gear drive or chain / belt drive camshaft ). Distributor rotation direction is not as important as wire orientation. You can achieve spark going to the correct place in either rotational direction.

 

I'm gathering that you are not happy with your rebuilder, but I'm not sure how they could have changed the direction that the engine spins.

[Gregor 4,846]

1 minute ago, Achto said:

Unless you mistakenly hooked the battery cables up backwards.

Even then, unless it's different than most starters, spinning the wrong direction, I don't think the bendix would pop out and engage the flywheel.

[Achto 27,601]

5 minutes ago, Gregor said:

unless it's different than most starters, spinning the wrong direction, I don't think the bendix would pop out and engage the flywheel

 

True that. 

 

I acquired a  520 that the PO said would not run. It cranked just fine but had no spark. Turns the battery cables were hooked up backwards, connected them correctly and it ran just fine. Never did pay attention to the engine rotation before I fixed the issue.

[953 nut 55,299]

My '48 ford flathead engine came from the factory with a six volt positive  ground.  I changed it over to twelve volt negative ground and the starter turned in the same direction though a bit faster. Don't know about the Renault Dauphine starter but I doubt it would turn backward with reversed polarity.

[Gregor 4,846]

8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

My '48 ford flathead engine came from the factory with a six volt positive  ground.  I changed it over to twelve volt negative ground and the starter turned in the same direction though a bit faster. Don't know about the Renault Dauphine starter but I doubt it would turn backward with reversed polarity.

Curiosity got the best of me again. I had to check this starter thing out. All I did was confuse myself even more.   I have a spare starter for my 7hp Tecky, and a spare for my Briggs & Stratton twin. When I apply 12 volts to either of them, (neg ground pos to post) they work as expected. Starter spins, bendix pops out.   Reverse the leads on the Tecky starter, it works perfectly. starter spins, in the right direction, bendix pops out. Reverse the leads on the Briggs & Stratton starter, the starter attempts to spin backwards, can't quite do it, bendix does not pop out. Apparently not all starters are created equal.

 

Went to the shed and got 2 more starters.John Deere starter from a165. Kawasaki motor. Either polarity, it works fine, This starter has the solenoid on top, like a car starter. I even have a spare starter for a Lawn Boy. (yes, some have starters) It will NOT work with pos to gnd, neg to post. Again, it will attempt to spin in reverse, can't do it. I suspect the backwards rotation is causing the bendix to draw IN, against the body of the starters, and jamming them.

Learn something new everyday.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Gregor

[wallfish 17,011]

11 hours ago, Achto said:

When looking at the front of the engine, it should turn clockwise.

That's what I'm think'n too. Maybe the fan is bolted on backwards

[Achto 27,601]

40 minutes ago, wallfish said:

That's what I'm think'n too. Maybe the fan is bolted on backwards

 

Unless. Are these engines mounted in the tractor backwards?? I know that a Kubota is mounted backwards in a Cub Cadet 782D. If this is the case, then the engine would turn counter clockwise when viewed from the front of the tractor.

 

Clues : Is the water pump in the front or rear of the tractor? Water pump should be on the front of an engine.

            Is the starter towards the front or rear of the tractor? Starter usually should drive on the rear of an engine.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Achto

[953 nut 55,299]

36 minutes ago, Achto said:

Are these engines mounted in the tractor backwards??

Bingo!                      They were mounted in the Renault Dauphine with the water pump etc. at the rear. I found the information below on an internet site, could it be that the cam and starter were swapped out at the rebuilder's shop.          

Reversing engine direction

•  Thread starterGeoff in the Gully 
•  Start dateSep 14, 2015

 

Geoff in the Gully

Getting it together

Messages

280

• Sep 14, 2015

•  
• #1

I've got a bit of an odd idea to put out there.
We know the 845cc engine rotates in the opposite direction to the 1100cc engine and we have to be careful to mate the right 4-speed box otherwise we end up with 4 reverse speeds and one forward.

A while back I looked into improving performance by using some parts including the camshaft from a Dauphine Gordini engine. The Dauphine is a rear-engine version of the 845cc Ventoux engine.
I eventually figured out I couldn't use the cam because the Dauphine Gordini engine rotates in the opposite direction and the cam would be opening the inlet and outlet valves in the wrong order.

But what if we want the engine to go the other way?
Can we use Dauphine bits to reverse the direction of our 845cc engine so we can use a later 354 gearbox?
I might be easier to do that than to find a gearbox that goes the right way.

The question is then just what does it take to reverse the direction, apart from the cam.
Is the crankshaft the same, or is it balanced differently?
Are the distributors rotating the same direction?

[Gregor 4,846]

53 minutes ago, wallfish said:

That's what I'm think'n too. Maybe the fan is bolted on backwards

I don't think it would matter. Forward or backward, the fan will still blow air in only one direction. It will blow air better, if mounted correctly, but can only blow in one direction, as long as motor rotation remains constant.

[Achto 27,601]

4 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

could it be that the cam and starter were swapped out at the rebuilder's shop.

 

If the engine is backwards then #1cyl would be towards the rear of the tractor. I would check the distributor again using the rear cylinder as #1

[wallfish 17,011]

6 hours ago, Gregor said:

I don't think it would matter. Forward or backward, the fan will still blow air in only one direction. It will blow air better, if mounted correctly, but can only blow in one direction, as long as motor rotation remains constant.

 I don't know anything about those engines but Dan mentioned it turning clockwise from the front so that direction would equal air blowing from the engine into the radiator according to the pic. Maybe a was in order instead of a

[Jeff R. 35]

I know nothing about D250’s - but am I seeing a water pump up near the dash??  Is this normal for a D250?

[Gregor 4,846]

26 minutes ago, Jeff R. said:

I know nothing about D250’s - but am I seeing a water pump up near the dash??  Is this normal for a D250?

It looks like the fan and radiator are in front, and plumed to the water pump in the rear.

[Jeff R. 35]

7 minutes ago, Gregor said:

It looks like the fan and radiator are in front, and plumed to the water pump in the rear.

thanks for the diagram- just thought it was strange, now it makes sense. 

[Lee1977 6,665]

I checked the internet Renault made engines that turned in both directions. They said they changed the engine rotation in1986. Could be they used the wrong parts. 

Some one pointed out that the intake and exhaust valves would be backwards if it turned in the wrong direction. Turn the starter in gear and see what direction the wheels turn.

 

[squonk 41,150]

Renault is French for " Leave it alone! "

[WheelHorse520H 708]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:23 PM, Lee1977 said:

I checked the internet Renault made engines that turned in both directions. They said they changed the engine rotation in1986. Could be they used the wrong parts. 

Some one pointed out that the intake and exhaust valves would be backwards if it turned in the wrong direction. Turn the starter in gear and see what direction the wheels turn.

 

That’s a good idea, I don’t know much about the D series but this is quite an interesting predicament. I am now following along to see how this goes. Hope it goes well and fast.

[Gregor 4,846]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:54 PM, lroudebush said:

Alrighty Gents,  I need some help.  I got an engine back from the rebuilder.   Please dont ask about that until I understand root cause.  The engine rotated in wrong direction.  Replaced the starter to correct.   Water pump was wrong as well.  Starter now rotates correct, but distributor rotates incorrectly.  Pulled distributor and the gear is still rotating incorrectly.   Am I looking at a wrong cam shaft?  I rotated by hand in the proper direction and confirmed, 1 cycl top dead then #3 top dead.   I need ideas from those smarter than me.  Thanks.
Larry

 

I for one, would sure like to hear/see an update on this.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

On 12/15/2021 at 1:07 PM, Gregor said:

I for one, would sure like to hear/see an update on this.

 

It doesn't appear that the op has returned since he posted!

 

@lroudebush

Edited January 1, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

I guess we'll never know. How am I gonna sleep nights?

[squonk 41,150]

Give him time guys. He's working on a Renault! 

[Gregor 4,846]

42 minutes ago, squonk said:

Give him time guys. He's working on a Renault! 

On PURPOSE?

[littleredrider 409]

The motor in 250s sit "backwards". The water pump faces the rear, the motor turns counter clockwise sitting on the tractor. I think lol. I don't know much bout these motors, other than hard to find parts for. And it anything like mine, gutless. Mine runs great, but has no power. Why I'm swapping it out for a 3 cylinder diesel....