More C-125 / K301 questions with photos...

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

stop wasting time

 

I've got nothing BUT time Paul!  

 

The Facet pump is like $75.  Then I have to engineer where I want to mount it, probably use some more fuel line, wire it up, etc, etc,

 

The diaphragm replacement takes like 20 minutes... done.  And the diaphragm costs like ten bucks.  If I don't smoke for a day, it's paid for!  I'd have to not smoke for ten days to pay for the Facet.

 

I've got nothing against using an electric pump, but rebuilding this one is the easier, faster, cheaper method.  Just sayin'

 

[Gregor 4,846]

21 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

If I don't smoke for a day,

[pfrederi 17,701]

42 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I've got nothing BUT time Paul!  

 

The Facet pump is like $75.  Then I have to engineer where I want to mount it, probably use some more fuel line, wire it up, etc, etc,

 

The diaphragm replacement takes like 20 minutes... done.  And the diaphragm costs like ten bucks.  If I don't smoke for a day, it's paid for!  I'd have to not smoke for ten days to pay for the Facet.

 

I've got nothing against using an electric pump, but rebuilding this one is the easier, faster, cheaper method.  Just sayin'

 

and if it fails it won't push gas into your crankcase....

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

if it fails it won't push gas into your crankcase....

 

Yes, there is that!

[Snoopy11 5,714]

4 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Yes, there is that!

Then you can install a dummy tank... 

 

Don

[Stormin 9,981]

11 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

I know that one particular guy (I won't name names...) would tell you that he bought and used this kit and it worked out just fine.   

 

Why would someone lie? Do you know it didn't?

 

A kit that comes with more than it says... is probably not worth your time

 

Sometimes repair kits for equipment come with more than you need, because of changes made by the manufactor. Not unusual. But as the diaphragm does not fit, evidently the wrong kit or the wrong diaphragm has been put in the package. That happens as well.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

OK, so getting back to the Kohler Knock:

 

Can anyone speak to this comment found on another forum that was posted some time ago?

 

 

 

[squonk 41,060]

There is a shim in there to keep the cam from banging back and forth .005"-to .010" of end play is the spec. Every cam and block are slightly different. If you engine has never been apart the shim is probably in there and isn't the source of your noise. I had some engines apart to junk and the shims ranged from .008" to .012"

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

If you engine has never been apart the shim is probably in there and isn't the source of your noise.

 

Thanks,  I am aware of the reason for the shim, what I'm wondering is if others have found excessive end play of the cam to be a source of the 'rattle' as the person that posted that implied.

 

I don't know if it's ever been apart.  I have some suspicion that it has, but the extent of which is not clear, nor the reason why it might have been apart.

 

I've watched a few videos and in one of them the guy is showing the end play without the shim and is lifting the cam up and down.  The sound of it hitting the end is very much like the sound that I am hearing, and the intermittent nature of it seems as if it could be the cam 'floating' on it's end play.

 

How possible do you suppose it is that the shim wears down over time and the end play exceeds the spec due to wear?

 

[Gregor 4,846]

8 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

How possible do you suppose it is that the shim wears down over time and the end play exceeds the spec due to wear?

Shim to none.

[Gregor 4,846]

The spec for camshaft end play is .005 - .010 for a 301. The shim itself measures .005. Unless there simply isn't a shim there at all, I myself can't imagine a clearance of . 012 - .015 causing a "knock",but that's just my opinion. I really don't think a .005 shim is going to wear down to .001, but I suppose anything is possible.

[squonk 41,060]

The shims are different thicknesses. It varies from cam to cam and block to block. If you replace a cam with one from another engine the original shim may or may not be correct. That noise in your video's sounded like either the balance gears or piston slap to me.

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

19 hours ago, squonk said:

That noise in your video's sounded like either the balance gears or piston slap to me.

 

Thanks Mike,  that's what I've been thinking all along since I first heard it running on day one, but I'm just trying to exhaust all other possibilities and get to know the engine as intimately as possible before I tear into it.  Can't count the YT vids I've watched!  Some are REALLY REALLY bad... video work that would make the Cap'n of the Titanic seasick.  And an "ummmm ya know" contest to see how many times the creator can say "ummm ya know" in three minutes.  But I digress.

 

And I STILL am unclear on this question:

 

On the 12 HP K301, can BOTH balance gears be removed from the bottom without removing the crankshaft, or smashing the upper gear with a cold chisel?

 

At some point I'm planning on a full rebuild of this engine but for now I just want to spend an afternoon removing the balance gears, if that is possible.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[squonk 41,060]

I believe you need to break the gear that sits higher in the engine to get it out.

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

16 hours ago, squonk said:

I believe you need to break the gear that sits higher in the engine to get it out.

 

You believe that, but is that a definite answer?  

 

YES, you must break the gear on a K301?

 

Would it be possible to get a Sawzall blade in there and cut the stub shaft maybe?  

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[squonk 41,060]

Yup, break the gear. I remember on my K341 when I checked the gears I said to myself, " no way that's coming out with the crank still in unless it's in pieces. 

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

43 minutes ago, squonk said:

K341

 

Any reason to think the K301 would be different in that regard?

 

Crank the same shape?

[squonk 41,060]

Crank weights are slightly different on a k301. Read this:

 

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/balance.htm

[Snoopy11 5,714]

@Jeff-C175

 

I'm just going to answer your question outright. I'm not going to bull-**** around. The bottom gear will clear the crank, but the top gear will not clear the crank. You will have to break the top gear to get it out. However, it is cast iron, so it will only take a "tap" with a hammer and chisel. It will shatter.

 

Read this:

 

https://www.gardentractortalk.com/threads/help-kohler-k301a-balance-gears.29472/

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,714]

@Jeff-C175

 

There is a quote on the website I mentioned above that applies:

 

The 301 is the best engine as far as neutral balance goes , and you will hardly notice [that they are removed].

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,714]

Removing balance gears on 301 based engines is appropriate because the counterweights are machined off of the crankshaft, as opposed to a 341 which has less flat-spot machining on the crank... thus, with the stock machining on the 301 crankshaft, the engine won't vibrate like an angry jack-hammer. 

 

Don

Edited December 22, 2021 by Snoopy11
typo

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

Crank weights are slightly different on a k301. Read this:

 

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/balance.htm

 

That article says that the 301 engine allows both gears to come out without having to break them.

 

I guess I'm gonna "just do it".  I'll be ordering some gaskets soon.

[kpinnc 11,996]

I just drove the pin out on the top gear on a K321, then drove the pin back in after. Moves surprisingly easy! 

 

I didn't want to introduce broken shards of cast iron into an engine that was going right back together.

Edited December 22, 2021 by kpinnc

[Snoopy11 5,714]

3 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

I didn't want to introduce broken shards of cast iron into an engine that was going right back together.

I was about to mention you buddy.

 

As well, the machining on the crankshaft that I spoke of above may indeed allow you to remove the top gear without too much trouble.

 

However, you may not know until you open it up. Then, you must have a second plan of action.

 

Don

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

56 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

the top gear will not clear the crank

 

On a 301 apparently it will clear.