No spark on K181

[squonk 41,161]

That wire goes to the terminal under the regulator. ( 4 terminal regulator)

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,050]

[ebinmaine 67,671]

@squonk and @gwest_ca

Excellent. Thanks guys.  

[Crmaverick 91]

44 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Most S/G terminals are actually labeled right on the connection tab or near it. 

 

 

Where exactly does that go??

 

The ONLY wire I've noted not being on the factory schematic is the one that goes from VR to under itself on the S/G. 

 

 

The negative cable should be fine as a battery jumper as long as the squeeze clamps are well "chewed in" to what they're on. Likely you're ok there given that the engine will turn over.  

My 753 has that same wire I’m not sure where it goes it looks original and has that same piece or rubber. I’ll have to look more 

 

55 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Ammeter itself doesn't need to be in there. The wire going through it however, certainly does. 

You can bypass the ammeter by connecting both of the terminals to the same stud on the meter. 

 

 

Does that mean i connect both wire terminals to the same stud on voltage regulator to loop it? 

[ebinmaine 67,671]

1 minute ago, Crmaverick said:

My 753 has that same wire I’m not sure where it goes it looks original and has that same piece or rubber. I’ll have to look more 

 

***********

SEE PREVIOUS POST WHEREIN @squonk LISTS THE CORRECT INFORMATION

Does that mean i connect both wire terminals to the same stud on AMMETER to loop it? 

Same stud on the ammeter, yes.  

[pfrederi 17,741]

The problem with the "Mystery wire"  (From under the Regulator to the A terminal on the Genny) was a Kohler part and didn't show up on WH wire diagrams...

[Crmaverick 91]

43 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Thanks for the diagram I have it wired liked this except the ampeter wire is disconnected  

[rjg854 11,387]

You have to have the two wires that go to the ammeter connected, either thru the lugs on the meter or just connected together to complete the circuit.

[953 nut 55,325]

11 hours ago, Crmaverick said:

on the lead that goes to + on coil I have 12 volts at the key ignition but somehow at the coil nothing on the + terminal. 
 

Something else is that sometimes it doesn’t turn over at all, I get nothing when I turn the key but I do have 12 volts going to the generator from the ignition, would that be a bad ground connection off the battery? 

Looking at the pictures you posted I suspect that the ignition switch is the problem child. The switch has to carry the full load of the S/G while starting and the switch the  left the factory with was rated for 70 Amps of electrical current. The switch you have is probably not able to stand that much flow and is failing internally.

You have a couple of options, a new switch of the proper type will set you back $ 80.00+/- if you can find one. Second option would be to go with a solenoid and a 103-990 ignition switch as shown in the diagram below.

[Crmaverick 91]

24 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Looking at the pictures you posted I suspect that the ignition switch is the problem child. The switch has to carry the full load of the S/G while starting and the switch the  left the factory with was rated for 70 Amps of electrical current. The switch you have is probably not able to stand that much flow and is failing internally.

You have a couple of options, a new switch of the proper type will set you back $ 80.00+/- if you can find one. Second option would be to go with a solenoid and a 103-990 ignition switch as shown in the diagram below.

 

Thanks I actually found an original 854 ignition switch it came in last night ill try that one out.

 

What effect is the ampmeter disconnected from the voltage regulator likely having, no spark? 

 

[953 nut 55,325]

13 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

 

What effect is the ampmeter disconnected from the voltage regulator likely having,

If you have the two wires from the amp meter securely bolted together you should be fine.

[Crmaverick 91]

6 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

If you have the two wires from the amp meter securely bolted together you should be fine.

 

I'm not sure I follow, the ampeter has no wires going to it (the green wire on the diagram above is disconnected but still connected to voltage regulator). Which two wires should I connect together? Thanks 

[ebinmaine 67,671]

So the ammeter has no wires going to either post?

 

Where exactly does your green wire go to and from?

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

19 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

So the ammeter has no wires going to either post?

 

Where exactly does your green wire go to and from?

 

 

 

The green wire comes off the voltage regulator center terminal and is disconnected hanging with a broken connector 

[ebinmaine 67,671]

4 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

 

The green wire comes off the voltage regulator center terminal and is disconnected hanging with a broken connector 

I don't I know enough about the electrical circuit of that tractor to tell you if that would cause a no spark condition but that wire certainly needs to be connected to the appropriate place on the above schematic diagram.

 

[ebinmaine 67,671]

I should rephrase that a little.

 

If you don't want to have the ammeter in the circuit you need to connect the green wire to where the white wire goes that would have been connected to the ammeter. 

[Handy Don 12,237]

To be clear, the working ammeter measures the current flowing THROUGH it from and to the battery. If you disconnect it, NO current flows and things don't work properly.

 

If you want to remove the ammeter you must connect the white and the green solidly together--either by putting them BOTH on the SAME terminal of the ammeter or by adding a JUMPER (orange line) connecting the two terminals.

 

And thanks @squonk and @gwest_ca for providing the extra diagram to satisfy my curiosity about that extra wire!

 

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

5 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Looking at the pictures you posted I suspect that the ignition switch is the problem child. The switch has to carry the full load of the S/G while starting and the switch the  left the factory with was rated for 70 Amps of electrical current. The switch you have is probably not able to stand that much flow and is failing internally.

You have a couple of options, a new switch of the proper type will set you back $ 80.00+/- if you can find one. Second option would be to go with a solenoid and a 103-990 ignition switch as shown in the diagram below.

Im still pretty stumped I had a chance at lunch today to rewire the new switch. I also wired in the amp meter per diagram. 
 

The starter Gen still only cranks over sometimes. Sometimes I turn the key and nothing happens. When it does turn over there’s still no spark. I’m showing 12 volts at the top terminal on starter Gen, and also 12 volts at that bottom terminal (when I turn the key). Not sure if that’s normal to have 12v on both? 

 

I made a solid copper ground whip from the battery negative terminal to the engine block ground terminal. I checked continuity from this ground wire to the block and it’s good. 
 

I checked continuity on the coil + wire that goes from the ignition switch to coil. I have good continuity, but when I turn the key I don’t get 12 volts down to the coil somehow. Any ideas on that? 
 

I did sand and grease all the connections to. thanks for all the help. 

[Crmaverick 91]

[ebinmaine 67,671]

7 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

 

15 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

checked continuity on the coil + wire that goes from the ignition switch to coil. I have good continuity, but when I turn the key I don’t get 12 volts down to the coil somehow. Any ideas on that?

 

I quoted the wiring schematic down to this post so we wouldn't have to keep scrolling up and down so much to see it.

I'm wondering if maybe your ignition switch itself is bad?

Do you have 12 volts to the small terminal on the back of the ignition switch when the key is in the ON and START positions, both?

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

26 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

I quoted the wiring schematic down to this post so we wouldn't have to keep scrolling up and down so much to see it.

I'm wondering if maybe your ignition switch itself is bad?

Do you have 12 volts to the small terminal on the back of the ignition switch when the key is in the ON and START positions, both?

 

 

 

I switched over to a different ignition switch and it has the same problem. I do get 12 Volts flowing through when I turn the key. The starter gen is also getting the 12 volts at both terminals when I turn the key. Really strange how it turns over sometimes but not always.

 

The coil wire is also a mystery, 12 volts at the switch, wire tests good, but somehow no 12 volts at the coil terminal.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Crmaverick

[wallfish 17,014]

58 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

but somehow no 12 volts at the coil terminal

That's the no spark issue.

Let's try a simple quick test. Remove the wire from the switch which is going to the + side of the coil. Verify it is indeed going to the + side terminal of the coil.

With your jumper cables connected to the battery and the other ground jaw connected to the engine that leaves only one of the jaws of the jumper cables not connected to anything. Then connect that wire removed from the switch which is going to the + side of the coil to the positive jumper cable jaw. Now Verify if you have 12v through that wire to the + side of the coil.

If so, take that positive end of the jumper cable with that coil wire still connected in the jaw and touch it to the post on the SG which has that big 6 gage wire going to it. Yes it will create sparks when it touches and be ready for the engine to turn over when you do it.

Basically this is eliminating any other parts or wires which are required to turn over the engine and provide spark with the exception of the points wire. The engine should crank over and you should have spark if the points and that points wire are good. If it cranks over and you have spark then replace ALL the wires currently on there.

If you don't have 12v to the + side of the coil with that wire connected directly to the jumper cable, replace that entire wire and continue with the test as above.

You can run the engine this way if the spark plug is back in and there's fuel going to the carb. Once it starts release from touching the cable to the SG but leave the coil wire connected in the jaw. To shut down release the coil wire from the jaw. Just don't run it for a long time!

Edited November 12, 2021 by wallfish

[Crmaverick 91]

16 minutes ago, wallfish said:

That's the no spark issue.

Let's try a simple quick test. Remove the wire from the switch which is going to the + side of the coil. Verify it is indeed going to the + side terminal of the coil.

With your jumper cables connected to the battery and the other ground jaw connected to the engine that leaves only one of the jaws of the jumper cables not connected to anything. Then connect that wire removed from the switch which is going to the + side of the coil to the positive jumper cable jaw. Now Verify if you have 12v through that wire to the + side of the coil.

If so, take that positive end of the jumper cable with that coil wire still connected in the jaw and touch it to the post on the SG which has that big 6 gage wire going to it. Yes it will create sparks when it touches and be ready for the engine to turn over when you do it.

Basically this is eliminating any other parts or wires which are required to turn over the engine and provide spark with the exception of the points wire. The engine should crank over and you should have spark if the points and that points wire are good. If it cranks over and you have spark then replace ALL the wires currently on there.

If you don't have 12v to the + side of the coil with that wire connected directly to the jumper cable, replace that entire wire and continue with the test as above.

You can run the engine this way if the spark plug is back in and there's fuel going to the carb. Once it starts release from touching the cable to the SG but leave the coil wire connected in the jaw. To shut down release the coil wire from the jaw.

That’s a good idea just want to make sure I’m reading this right.
 

-Hook up both leads to the battery. Leave - jaw grounded to block. 
 

-Hook up the positive battery lead jaw to the coil + wire end disconnected from the ignition switch  while it’s hooked up to coil + terminal.

 

-Then take that positive with the coil wire clamped inside it and contact the top starter/gen post

 

Does that sound like I have it right? 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Crmaverick

[wallfish 17,014]

Yes after that edit.

Both jumper cable leads to the battery

The other black ground jumper cable lead to the engine block

That leaves only one positive jaw on the jumper cable. Connect the + side of the coil to that positive jaw and check for 12v at the coil

Use THAT SAME POSITIVE JAW WITH THE WIRE STILL ON IT to touch the terminal on the SG to check for spark when the engine turns over

NOT THE BLACK GROUND jaw as suggested above.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by wallfish

[Crmaverick 91]

3 minutes ago, wallfish said:

NO.

Both jumper cable leads to the battery

The other black ground jumper cable lead to the engine block

That leaves only one positive jaw on the jumper cable. Connect the + side of the coil to that positive jaw and check for 12v at the coil

Use THAT SAME POSITIVE JAW WITH THE WIRE STILL ON IT to touch the terminal on the SG to check for spark when the engine turns over

NOT THE BLACK GROUND jaw as suggested above.

 

Thanks I’ll give this a shot tomorrow and we’ll see how it goes.