Troubleshooting - stall on battery disconnect??

[416-8 Horsey 1]

Hi Folks

 

I picked up an old 416-8 wheelhorse, just trying to sort out an issue i am having. 

 

The problem is the mower will start with a jump starter, but then stalls within a few minutes. The battery is flat and does not appear to be charging, i believe battery itself is ok (or, at least not the cause of the problem, rather a result).

 

There was some water contaminating the fuel so i've cleaned lines, empty tank, new fuel, new fuel filter, take carby top off and clean jets / blow air back thru.   

 

I was getting some surging when the motor was running and this seems ot have subsided now, so I think the water issue is resolved, however ... the stalling problem remains.

 

I closed the fuel shutoff valve as part of this, I assume when i open i full open it?  (it was a little closed when i got to it (eg 80% open) , i am thinking maybe this increases fuel flow and creates rich fuel problem (?)

 

When i restart after a stall i get a puff of dark smoke coming from exhaust, also sometimes the stall is preceded by backfire(s)

 

I notice when i start the engine and then disconnect the jump starter it seems to stall within around 10 seconds, this seems quite consistent.

 

I am not sure if this is a spark issue, eg maybe faulty alternator or I should look more at the fuel side of things.

 

What do people think, anyone got ideas of things to look at / thoughts on how to test alternator?  i have multimeter, am i juts looking for around 13 - 14 volt across batter when running or is there something else i should do?

 

thanks in advance, seems like a great mower, as long as i can sort this out before my grass grows too much more :) !! 

 

[rmaynard 15,512]

To begin, I would put a 10-15 amp charger on the battery for 24 hours. It should charge to at least 12.3 volts. A bad battery can't be charged by the tractors lower amperage charging system.

 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I'm sure there's a manual here on this site but Google found this:

https://manualzz.com/doc/6296745/electrical-service-manual-wheel-horse

 

Sooner or later you are going to want to know at least some of this stuff, at least the basics.

As Maynard stated, charge the battery first and then yes, with meter in hand and wiring diagram nearby familiarize yourself with the wiring and be thankful that it's not more complicated.  Then when you have a better idea of where things are, fire it up and look for voltage changes, hopefully some 13+ somewhere eventually working it's way to the battery.

 

Good luck.  Several others here to help, but do a little research and have some tools close at hand first.

[Achto 27,601]

Which engine do you have in your tractor? The 416 came with either a Kohler or an Onan.

If your engine uses a battery ignition ( automotive style coil ) you will need battery power for it to run. When the engine is running you should have 13 to 14 volts DC at the battery.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

7 hours ago, 416-8 Horsey said:

believe battery itself is ok

 

I would not assume that.

 

Test it or replace it.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[pfrederi 17,741]

Many postings here about electrical problems ultimately resolve to a bad battery.. Charge it up load test it or replace it....

[oliver2-44 9,759]

As other s have said, get you battery squared away. As part of your "new to you" maintenance go over the electrical system and clean/replace corroded connectors, especially your ground cables.   While you flushed the fule lines, you may want to replace them with ethanol resistant tubing. I like the see thru blue tubing.  The ethanol eats the rubber and tiny pieces flake off and clog up your carb. 

 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,600]

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

11 hours ago, 416-8 Horsey said:

i have multimeter, am i juts looking for around 13 - 14 volt across batter when running

 

Measure the battery voltage after the machine has NOT been running for a few hours.  Should be in the vicinity of 12.5 to 13 Volts.

 

Start the machine and measure the voltage at the battery while it is running.  Should be at LEAST 13.5 - 13.8 Volts, but may be as high as ohhhh, say 14.5 Volts.

 

This will tell you if the charging system is working, but will NOT diagnose the battery condition to any great extent.

 

You need to perform a LOAD TEST on the battery to really test that.  If you have access to a HYDROMETER you can check the SPECIFIC GRAVITY of the battery acid which gives a good indication of the charge state, but will NOT tell you anything about the LOAD CAPACITY of the battery.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

 

[953 nut 55,305]

[416-8 Horsey 1]

So much help here from everyone, thank you very much. 

 

I have been working on this today and have figured out the regulator is at least the problem (ac - ac terminals are good at 40+V, but b+ middle terminal to ground is only 11.6V, also ... when i look at it it is bulging and looks burnt on one terminal!) .  So its just two separate issues, watery fuel =  surging (clear lines, fuel filter, new fuel) and that is ok + regulator issue which is apparently pretty common

 

Had some confusion with an additional wire coming of regulator but it just ends in a nearby connector, I saw another post where someone suggest this is for tacho hookup.

 

So ... my new problem ... ...

 

I live downunder, a regulator here is $300 ... (oh my) rather than $20.  I can get other mower regulators for $30 though, eg a briggs and stratton - are these likely to have the same electrical specs and i just need to figure out how to mount, or is this unlikely? 

I can put in order with a US supplier of course and commence  waiting for post 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by 416-8 Horsey
add clarifdication

[lynnmor 7,308]

8 hours ago, 416-8 Horsey said:

I live downunder, a regulator here is $300 ... (oh my) rather than $20.  I can get other mower regulators for $30 though, eg a briggs and stratton - are these likely to have the same electrical specs and i just need to figure out how to mount, or is this unlikely? 

I can put in order with a US supplier of course and commence  waiting for post 

 

I see that you can get cheap imported regulators on eBay or Amazon, if you have the Onan engine, you didn't say which engine you have.  I have used the cheap regulators without issue. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

20 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

I see that you can get cheap imported regulators on eBay or Amazon, if you have the Onan engine, you didn't say which engine you have.  I have used the cheap regulators without issue. 

Remember that the regulator's fins need airflow past them to keep the internal electronics cool. That yours "bulged" makes me wonder if the engine's overall airflow is clear. Onan engines push a lot of cooling air and can suck up dust, dirt, and chaff. Have you had the tins off to clean it all out? Do you have the gasket in place around the oil filter?

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

14 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

tins off

 

Not Onan, but every time I'm done mowing I blow out as much as I can from the fins with an air nozzle.

 

Still, in spite of that there's always a tremendous amount of crap packed into the fins when I pull the tins every couple years.

 

Highly advisable to make that a PM line item!