Tired of Chinese products

[AMC RULES 37,130]

 Always figured you to have a little asian in you Bob.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

23 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

The only Chinese products that I love and will continue to buy is Kung Pao Chicken with Shrimp Fried Rice and an Egg roll.

Those are “made” in America…

 

[1940willys 120]

Tried out a New Store. They been advertising on the Television here.  Trying to get a pair of Timberland Pro 6" soft toe Work Boots. I have been wearing this Brand for years. Think they were made off shore from way back when. They didn't have them, told me they were in a shipping container at sea. Now, that's a whole nother problem!  

[rmaynard 15,459]

4 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

Those are “made” in America…

 

Even better 

[peter lena 8,627]

@peter lena  fortunate to have a couple of old kohler  sink faucets , nearing 40 years of use , no drips or failures, on the other hand my newer kitchen faucet assembly , which  is a delta  , with a moen  cartridge seal set up , fails regularly about a year after installing a new cartridge . looking at a similar single post faucet , diagram brings me back to the same cartridge set up , all Chinese made . replace the cartridge with the correct service removal tool , silicone grease , smooth and easy , I know its going to fail again , just what's out there , pete   

[EB-80/8inPA 1,641]

This has to be one of the most disheartening topics I’ve read on this site.  I think I’ll go look at my little red tractors and contemplate how long they might continue to run, forestalling the descent into this post industrial abyss.

p.s.  Wix filters of all things!

Made of Chinesium!?!?!  Gaaaah!

[wallfish 16,999]

15 hours ago, DennisThornton said:

Oh no!  WIX?  NAPA Gold?  Chinese? 

What's next? 

American Flags

Oh wait a minute, they already are made there!

Apple pie

Edited October 19, 2021 by wallfish

[Ed Kennell 38,174]

Looks like Communism has won the long fought war.  And without firing a shot. 

Just thoushands of shipping containers filled with stink bugs, lantern flys, ash borers, snakeheads,asian flu, covid virus, and cheap junk.

[wh500special 2,183]

I probably shouldn’t get involved in this, but here I go…

 

I’m not comfortable when we generalize and say “The Chinese” are just building junk.  
 

I don’t dispute that they are building junk, but the implication is that they build junk because they can’t NOT build junk.   On the contrary, there is zero doubt in my mind that they are only building to the specifications and price targets WE have asked for.  Our western societies have slowly confirmed that price and margins mean more to us than durable products that have a long life cycle. 
 

Over thousands of years, the Chinese have proven how resourceful, innovative, and hard-charging they can be.  In the last decades, they’ve happily and competently provided exactly what we’ve asked them to provide.  
 

if you back up 40 or more years ago and look at just about any product, things were so much more expensive then (in real dollars) than they are now.  There was a time a pair of shoes, or a TV, or an electric drill, or a lawnmower was a serious investment.  Now, most of these things end up being in the noise level of the budgets for many of us and we systematically gravitate toward the cheap.  
 

We opened the door to this place we find ourselves in very slowly.  As consumers, we kept purchasing the cheaper alternatives and prices slowly dropped over the years.  This probably started in the 1970’s back when “made in Japan” carried about the same cachet as “made in China” does today.  We drove out our established - expensive - retailers like Sears very slowly as we saw better values (more accurately, cheaper prices) elsewhere.   
 

We gravitated to Walmart and the dollar stores, eBay, then Amazon.  Like in so many other aspects of our modern lives, we’ve decided that we can only look at a single variable - in these cases it’s price - when we make decisions.   Retailers constantly adjusted their product mix to match our tastes.  The incremental cheapening took decades to get where we are today; a place where we don’t even think twice about throwing things away.  
 

There are still a handful of products out there that cost more and aren’t made with the cheapest planetary labor rates, but these items tend to not find their way into the common persons’ hands.  These are the Snap Ons, Festools, Speed Queens, Allen Edmonds, and the like.  We now tend to look at an above-average price as being a prestige purchase for the elite when - in adjusted dollars - these are the sorts of products that have parity with the prices we were paying in the 1970’s. 
 

We have SO MUCH stuff these days. Big houses, two cars, cell phones, multiple TV’s, lots of clothes, plastic patio furniture…probably thanks to cheap imported goods and cheap oil.   We know we are drowning in this mess but we keep piling it on deeper and deeper. 

 

We do still have some alternatives available to the cheap, disposable wares but they are getting harder to find with each passing day.   As an example, you can go buy a 100% made in the USA lawnmower from Honda (yes, I see the irony) for $800, or you can spend third less and get a mostly made in USA Toro, or you can spend a fifth as much and get an imported one from China.  For most, the choice is pretty easy since there is also food to buy, car payments to make, sports TV subscriptions to pay, and so on. 
 

There is some amount of chicken-and-egg to this cycle of demanding cheap products and I don’t know the chronology.   Did we buy cheap products because that’s what was available, or are cheap products available because that’s what we buy?   Either way, I think the bulk of the problem comes from the guys looking back at us from our mirrors, not the providers of the cheap junk on the other side of the globe. 
 

My point here is that “The Chinese” are selling us exactly what we are asking for. We found a place with copious cheap labor, lax environmental standards, no protection for intellectual property, and suspect human rights and hired them to race our manufacturers to the bottom.  I’m not sure who the winner is in these races, but I can pretty easily identify the losers.    
 

They CAN build quality products - they just safely sent another crew to their space station for Pete’s sake - but that’s not what we are typically asking them to do.  It’s not what we’re hiring them to do. 
 

Again, it comes down to the specifications. And as a generality, the fault lies on our side of the ocean.    It’s sad to hear it’s the same in Europe too. 
 

How does this end?  No idea.  But as our cultural differences and disagreements over global property and resources mount, it seems inevitable that “The Chinese” will turn off the spigot for the latest gadgets, toys, addictions, and necessities and (perhaps) make us finally realize how we got here.   It doesn’t even need to be an act of aggression to stop the flow, instead it could be because homegrown demand there for higher-value products will outpace our needs for cheap plastic junk and they’ll find they can make more money servicing their own growing and hungry population.  
 

Regardless, I think these are self-inflicted wounds.  
 

Steve 

Edited October 19, 2021 by wh500special

[squonk 41,118]

7 hours ago, wh500special said:

 

 

 

 

    It’s sad to hear it’s the same in Europe too. 
 

 

  
 

Steve 

 

 

Excellent post. We have short memories. I  keep hearing  complain like this just happened. This really ramped up in the 70's and never stopped. I've been binge watching. Leave it to Beaver. Yes it's a comedy about a goofy kid, but if you watch it and PAY ATTENTION, you will see how life was in the "Great" time. Yes Ward got himself a new car all the time, but Beaver want's a pair of skates. $12 . He has to beg Ward for a new one. Bicycle is $ 25 . Ward says that's a big investment. Beaver doesn't get one. Wally only has 2 dollars to  go on a date. We complain. Look at @formariz thread with the fuel cost in Portugal.  Fill up your 1 ton F350 Power Joke and Pay that! It's a world wide problem not just America

[Handy Don 12,227]

7 hours ago, wh500special said:

I think these are self-inflicted wounds.  

Thank you, Steve. 

 

I've posted similar in the past and thought of doing so again but your thorough and thoughtful (and IMHO correct) assessment is "right on the money".

 

I'll add a relevant example. Someone posted here an image of the original sales receipt for a tractor they'd picked up recently. Seeing it, I was struck that at the time of that original sale, the tractor cost was a bit more than one month of my then salary. I had bought a car in that year for only a little more. No wonder lots of dealers offered installment payment plans. And WH was not the priciest offering, JDs and Cubs both cost more then. Who today would part with over 8% of their annual income for a nice lawn mower? How many of us did 40 years ago?

[kpinnc 12,047]

Good points there Steve, no doubt about it.

 

 

[formariz 11,987]

The bottom line is that most of it is our fault. And sure one has to understand that not everyone can splurge on the best things at a premium price. I also agree that they sell us what we are willing to pay for. Using the US as the standard for “ high” Chinese product quality which I am sure it is when I see what is available in Europe you all can only imagine what I see here.
 

We can all agree with @wh500special

accurate description of the mess we are in and how we got in it and the fact that we need to wake up from the stupor we placed ourselves in. 

 There is however one factor we are forgetting as to what type of quality they can or cannot produce and why. When years ago it started with Japan, the big difference is that Japanese products were actually pretty good and only got and keep getting better even though most would not admit it. Today even  the stuff made in Taiwan is actually superior to what is produced by China. Of course the Chinese can produce quality stuff but we will never get our hands on it. Their quality products will basically be for their own use and to achieve their government goals what ever they may be. The goal there is to keep control of the bodies and minds of the population. Giving them the tools and knowledge needed to be innovative , productive, and ambitious just to name a few ,requires freedom which is totally contrary to what their system is all about. Those are the tools needed to produce quality. You can only squeeze so much out of a human being with their actual system. I was born in a similar system. Keeping the population tame by keeping them uninformed and in line with their ideals was the norm. We were herded like sheep and could care less about the fruit of our labor. That fruit was immediately confiscated anyway.  I am not impressed with their exploits into space or their latest constant showing of cloned hardware. Those do not represent the actual Chinese people but only a small portion of it. I say it again , you can only squeeze a human being so much and for so long.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I felt like I should comment yesterday but hesitated...    Some great comments today! 

 

I'm certain that China does not use what they sell to US and that what WE buy is NOT what China uses to build their advanced aircraft, carriers and spacecraft!  They can build good stuff with good tools with the money they make from selling US (ME included!) the other stuff. 

 

The mess we are in today didn't happen quickly and as much as I dislike a lot of  government interference someone should have predicted and tried to prevent this embarrassing situation we find our retail shelves in. 

 

I don't see how we can buy American if it's either not even available or not really practical at current wages for many or most. 

 

Gonna take years to undo this... 

[slim67 2,735]

1 hour ago, DennisThornton said:

I felt like I should comment yesterday but hesitated...    Some great comments today! 

 

I'm certain that China does not use what they sell to US and that what WE buy is NOT what China uses to build their advanced aircraft, carriers and spacecraft!  They can build good stuff with good tools with the money they make from selling US (ME included!) the other stuff. 

 

The mess we are in today didn't happen quickly and as much as I dislike a lot of  government interference someone should have predicted and tried to prevent this embarrassing situation we find our retail shelves in. 

 

I don't see how we can buy American if it's either not even available or not really practical at current wages for many or most. 

 

Gonna take years to undo this... 

red dawn

[kpinnc 12,047]

The US made great things once (and I know still does on a smaller scale), but we made plenty of absolute crap too. Chinese imports are likely similar.

 

My other hobby is remote control aircraft. 20 years ago, even a decent US or Japanese made radio controller could cost thousands. Then Chinese companies produced far more capable radios for a couple hundred bucks. Some lesser models, but still capable were less than $50. I'm guilty of buying one myself, and the stabilization gear is excellent, and dirt cheap. Quite frankly, the expense of the hobby kept most out of it until recent years. 

 

So I believe there is some truth to the "did it ourselves" argument, but it isn't quite that simple. Corporations sent manufacturing overseas to save money, and no one said a word. My wife and I both drive Toyota trucks (built in Texas), because the same quality doesn't exist in domestic vehicles. I know that is a can of worms, but it is just a personal decision so don't be hating on me for that.

 

American quality suffered in the 70s and 80s, and Japan was ready and waiting to impress someone. China wasn't far behind. Point being, it wasn't 100 percent consumer fault. We share some of the blame, but someone else opened the gate. With workers demanding $20 per hour to flip burgers at McDonald's I don't know how this will ever change peacefully. I believe we're living in times before a massive test of our society as a whole. I hope it's one we come together on to some degree to meet the challenge. 

 

And no that isn't a political comment. I'm saying we are spoiled plain and simple. We and our parents trying to do better for our kids than we had it may have been a mistake.

Edited October 20, 2021 by kpinnc

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I owned an autobody shop during the 70's and 80's and I was very disappointed in what I saw being sent out by US automakers.  I also worked on lots of imports and noticed that affordable quality could be produced.  It always amazed me that Japan could buy US steel, ship it across the Pacific, make a vehicle, send it back over the Pacific and sell a better vehicle to us for less than we could buy a US vehicle!  US made a lot of crappy autos for several years!  My Dad wore a blue shirt at Ford back then and he told me the Union even noted that if they didn't produce better vehicles their kids wouldn't have a job in the auto industry!  Union cooperating with management!  Imagine that!

 

It's was complicated, took decades and I'm afraid the solution is complicated and will take years as well.  I'm sort of a prepper, or at least I believe in being prepared for as much as a reasonably can.  I had several N95 masks when the SHTF but was shocked to find that most if not all came from China!  This household stocks most critical items and I have a ton of tools that could make and fix a lot.  This country needs to be able to make what it must have!  There are some raw materials that need to be sourced and WE don't have vast stores of everything mineral needed, but we should.  Not just what's needed to run the gears day to day!  Now we can't even unload what we are buying, much less make what we need.  Cargo ships filling up the ports!  Quite the mess!

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

20 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

 

My other hobby is remote controlled aircraft.

Do you build your own ?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[953 nut 55,229]

On 10/19/2021 at 4:51 PM, formariz said:

bottom line is that most of it is our fault

Wages are a very minor part of the reason our manufacturing has been moving overseas. Rather than working with US manufacturers to develop commonsense ways of reducing  pollution it was exported to China along with good paying meaningful employment. China has no clean air/water standards and  has become the world's worst polluter. 

The foundry my father worked at when I was born (nearly 77 years ago) was forced out of business a couple of years ago. After over a century and a half in operation New York State regulators put over two hundred workers out on the streets because the clock had run out on the "grandfather clause" that had allowed them to continue doing business as long as they didn't expand their operation. 

All commercial nuclear reactors must replace the reactor heads every twenty years due to hydrogen embrittlement. There isn't a foundry in the US, Japan or Europe large enough to cast these. All of our reactors were built in the USA, now we are at the mercy of the Chinese to keep them running.                   

[Ed Kennell 38,174]

On 10/19/2021 at 12:28 AM, wh500special said:

Chinese have proven how resourceful, innovative, and hard-charging they can be

Exactly...case in point.  In the 1990s when I was doing the research and development of the model hydro turbine for the Three Gorges Project, I was required to host a dozen Chinese engineers.   Cameras were not permitted  during the many tours, but with paper and pencil, they created drawings and in one year built a duplicate  hydro lab that took us 30 years to refine.

Three Gorges is now the largest Hydro Electric Plant in the world producing 30 million HP.

 

 

[formariz 11,987]

7 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Cameras were not permitted  during the many tours, but with paper and pencil, they created drawings and in one year built a duplicate  hydro lab that took us 30 years to refine.

Not exactly innovative Ed. Resourceful and hard charging yes. 

[Handy Don 12,227]

Just now, Ed Kennell said:

Exactly...case in point.  In the 1990s when I was doing the research and development of the model hydro turbine for the Three Gorges Project, I was required to host a dozen Chinese engineers.   Cameras were not permitted  during the many tours, but with paper and pencil, they created drawings and in one year built a duplicate  hydro lab that took us 30 years to refine.

Three Gorges is now the largest Hydro Electric Plant in the world producing 30 million HP.

 

Being careful to avoid veering into politics, I will suggest that looking ahead based on past experience might be valuable.

 

Couple other observations:

Many universities in the US, overly eager for the income from "full freight" students have been educating Chinese engineers to very high levels of skill for many years. When these students return home, they are in great demand. Few Chinese universities admit foreign students except from "targeted" countries.

 

My Dad worked in a plant that used many proprietary rubber compounds for its products. While giving a tour to a group of Japanese construction engineers in the 70's, one asked if he could take a piece of rubber from a scrap bin. Dad said sure thinking he might want it to give to his children--we had lots of rubber chunks we played with at home. Then the guy pulled out a pocket knife, spit on the blade, and went to cut a hunk. Dad saw that and put the kibosh on sampling and the tour ended abruptly. Spitting on the knife exposed the guy as an experienced rubber engineer looking to reverse engineer the sample--the group was not who they represented themselves to be.

[RandyLittrell 3,877]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:28 PM, wh500special said:

I think these are self-inflicted wounds.  

 

 

I completely agree, for the most part it is American companies that buy from china and resell it to us. We have demanded the cheapest products for a long time now and vote with our buying power, we are getting exactly what we asked for. 

 

Now we have an economy based on buying, not building. Wages are low and we are told we can't raise wages or it will ruin our economy. I call BS, there was a time normal working folks could buy a house and raise there kids. Even with just one income, hard to make it on two now. 

 

My folks bought a new Zenith tv in the 60's that cost  600 bucks and they used it for 25 years. Nobody wants anything for 25 years now except us tractor guys!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Randy

[ri702bill 8,321]

Don:

I can relate to the free sample incident. I worked as a technician twice for Brown & Sharpe, first in the Machine Tool division in the early 1980's and again for the Metrology division in the 1990's (at that point the Machine Tool division was dead and gone). We had several of our programmable Machining Centers and programmable Lathes at the large Chicago Machine Tool trade show. The Lathe was turning out samples of what was tauted as the smallest machine screw in the world - made an 0-80 screw look like a 8" lagbolt. A few went to representative of a Japanese competitor. A couple of weeks later, an envelope arrives - no correspondence, just a return address of the supplier in Japan. Our Engineer opened the envelope and inside was one of our sample screws. Upon close inspection under a microscope, our screw had been drilled thru and tapped for THEIR smallest screw that was driven in!

Bill

[Handy Don 12,227]

4 minutes ago, RandyLittrell said:

used it for 25 years. Nobody wants anything for 25 years now

Had this discussion some years back with a building contractor.

Issue was insulation and heating system for a house he was building. His plan was for a cheapie, inefficient system with an 8-year expected life and the minimum code-required insulation. I was trying to persuade him to up to a 25-year system and substantial extra insulation. I pointed to the low annual operating cost, better comfort, and lifetime economy--with the proof being my own energy bills.

"Why spend more?" he asked. "No one will pay extra for that. All they care about is marble countertops and a fancy bathroom and they'll likely sell and move on in six of seven years anyway and leave it to the next guy."

So true. He won the argument.