Attach Snow Thrower to 417-8 ???

[threepiece 6]

Fellows, I bought this tractor and thrower separately. While never owning a thrower I thought installing one on a tractor would be reasonably simple for me, after all I have been fabricating steel for a living and as a hobby for over 40 years. This started two weeks ago and I am still not close to finished.

 

I’m sure this has been covered many times but I have searched for pictures of the underside connection and found nothing that satisfies my curiosity. I have already made a lift bar and connected it to the rear drawbar pin. I am now looking at adding a spring assist. 
 

My questions are: Was the snow thrower intended to be used on a manual lift tractor? If so, can someone pleas show a picture or describe the connection for me? 
 

Thank you all for any help.

 

 

[rjg854 11,474]

  I'll see if I can get you some pictures.  The connections are the same for either manual or hydro.  Just with the hydro, you aren't the lift power.  

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,094]

This shows where the flag attaches. The lift pushes the flag and tube plus the bottom of the snowthrower forward and since the top of the snowthrower pivots on the front hitch it forces the unit up.

[rjg854 11,474]

 

This is the shoot control support, attaches to the center attach o matic

attach to the front attach o matic

Belt routing

The flag into lift arm

[threepiece 6]

Thanks to all for the input however what you all have posted here is what I have already found on the internet. Perhaps I should have been more specific, my apologies. What I would like to know is where the “flag” on the end of the lift tube attaches? I could not find any reference to this. Also, any help in configuring an assist spring of sorts. I have several ideas for this that I have been going around in circles with, it’s about time to commit to one! Thanks again.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,094]

 

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

4 hours ago, threepiece said:

configuring an assist spring

 

I made my spring out of an old garage door spring.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[threepiece 6]

Well it looks like, according to the factory manual, the assist spring is attached to the unused arm of the bellcrank. In my hours of consideration I had not thought of this. My focus has been attaching to the lift tube (or in my case lift bar). Adding a spring to the bellcrank is a much simpler affair however it does nothing to reduce the stress on the already light and notoriously troublesome rigging hardware. 
 

I think I will pursue an idea that uses a compression type die spring attached in the area between the front axle and Tach-a-matic hitch. There are holes on both frame rails in this area where a bracket can be attached.

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

8 minutes ago, threepiece said:

 the assist spring is attached to the unused arm of the bellcrank

 

There is a tab on the 'flag' for one end of the assist spring.  Into the hole in that tab goes a 'closed eye hook'.

 

The other end of the spring goes around the front foot rest rod that runs all the way through the frame.

 

 

Look through this thread...  you'll see what I had to do to fit an older blower to my machine.

 

 

Here's the one that Lowell sells at  http://www.wheelhorsepartsandmore.com

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[threepiece 6]

2 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I made my spring out of an old garage door spring.

One of my methods involves a bumper from a Ford Model A. After ripping it in half I was to mount them on each side, sticking out several inches in front of the tractor. They would loaded in bending.

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

2 minutes ago, threepiece said:

One of my methods involves a bumper from a Ford Model A. After ripping it in half I was to mount them on each side, sticking out several inches in front of the tractor. They would loaded in bending.

 

You're gonna have to post a picture of that... I don't understand what you're saying!

 

[threepiece 6]

I now see the picture in post #9, it wasn’t showing earlier for some reason. What I have been wanting to know from the start of this project is where the flag bracket attaches to? In the picture I see a pin protruding from it that I assume fits into some structure of the tractor. Where is this part of the tractor? 
 

 

[Handy Don 12,457]

Pin goes in the hole circled in red in post #6 -- where it says SNOW THROWER

[threepiece 6]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Pin goes in the hole circled in red in post #6 -- where it says SNOW THROWER

Well this puts a huge spin on things. It seems the lift system is intended to work in a manner very different than I thought. It seemed obvious to me that the lever arm (item #14 in post #6) is to be attached to the lift tube much like a mower deck. Looks like I have yet more thinking to do.

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

43 minutes ago, threepiece said:

Well this puts a huge spin on things. It seems the lift system is intended to work in a manner very different than I thought. It seemed obvious to me that the lever arm (item #14 in post #6) is to be attached to the lift tube much like a mower deck. Looks like I have yet more thinking to do.

 

That was actually my problem when I started my project too!  Since I had never attached a blower to my machine all I knew was the arm that lifts the deck and the plow.

 

The blower flag pin goes in a hole in the "rocker shaft" as Don mentioned.  You'll need to get on your back and slide under the machine to see it, it's tucked up into the frame for the most part.

 

When you go to raise the blower, that will  PUSH FORWARD  on the blower lift rod to cause it to raise up based on the geometry of where the blower is attached to the "Tach-A-Matic".

 

 

The ASSIST SPRING EXTENDS when the blower is lowered, so that the tension in the spring helps you to lift it back up.  It's a 'counter balance' of sorts.  Using the EYE BOLT you can PRELOAD the spring after attaching it, so if you buy an eye bolt, make sure you get one that's long enough to allow you to put slack into the spring to make it easier to install and remove the spring.  It's supposed to be a pretty meaty spring!  I think the 'stock' spring is 1.5" diameter and about 7" long... but I found that was a bit too long.  I think 6" is a better number.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[SPINJIM 1,981]

I have a 2-stage snowblower on my 417-8, and I use TWO coil springs to assist the the electric lift.  I use the one that has been discussed and mounted on the 'flag'.  Then a second one up front attached vertically at the front of the frame.  I'll try to get a picture to you tomorrow.

   Jim

[threepiece 6]

12 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

 

 

When you go to raise the blower, that will  PUSH FORWARD  on the blower lift rod to cause it to raise up based on the geometry of where the blower is attached to the "Tach-A-Matic".

 

 

 

I am having trouble understanding this part. Doesn’t “flag assembly” have a sliding fit into the lift tube? If so, it seems the flag bracket would have to bottom out on the lift tube before any force is applied, is that right?

 

 

12 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

 

 

 

[peter lena 8,720]

@SPINJIM@threepiece , agree with you on the vertical forward lift spring , the initial lift spring on the flag , is to get the lift started , but the foward vertical spring  finishes the job. did a lot of tweaking on mine , to increase its effect , also detail lube every motion point , do not miss any area, you will feel the ease of function , pete

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,094]

1 hour ago, threepiece said:

 

 

That is correct. If the snowthrower does not lift high enough you can add flat washers between the flag and the tube. Each 1/8" thick flat washer changes the lift height by approximately 1/2". If the lift is too high or the snowthrower will not lower far enough you can shorten the tube to make a change.

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

2 hours ago, threepiece said:

 

 

 

Yes Sir, that is correct.

 

I should add that big flat washers are used on the shaft of the flag, between the flag and the rod.  Generally two.  But when you install you need to check to make sure it doesn't lift too far and mash the rod into the bottom of the front axle.  If it does hit you remove washers.  If it doesn't lift enough you add washers.  In some cases you may need to shorten the rod by cutting or grinding.

 

You need the sliding fit so that when the blower is down it rides on the wheels or skids.  You do NOT want it to be rigid.  The blower needs to be able to ride along the terrain without slamming the end of the rod into the flag.  That would be a bad thing!

 

So, when the blower is fully raised the rod does not hit the axle, and when it is down there needs to be some distance between the rod and the flag.

 

[threepiece 6]

5 hours ago, peter lena said:

@SPINJIM@threepiece , agree with you on the vertical forward lift spring , the initial lift spring on the flag , is to get the lift started , but the foward vertical spring  finishes the job. did a lot of tweaking on mine , to increase its effect , also detail lube every motion point , do not miss any area, you will feel the ease of function , pete

 

5 hours ago, peter lena said:

@SPINJIM@threepiece , agree with you on the vertical forward lift spring , the initial lift spring on the flag , is to get the lift started , but the foward vertical spring  finishes the job. did a lot of tweaking on mine , to increase its effect , also detail lube every motion point , do not miss any area, you will feel the ease of function , pete

I think I got it now.... mostly.  So there are two springs, one horizontal at the bellcrank or rock shaft and another vertical spring somewhere near the front axle? That makes more sense. Is the vertical spring part of the factory design?

[peter lena 8,720]

@threepiece  no that front lift spring was not on the factory design . i have put eye bolts on the front end of frame , replacing existing original bolts , giving me a solid place to go to . having experimented with many improvements , that are not in the book . looked a many options to make things better . pete

[threepiece 6]

13 hours ago, peter lena said:

@threepiece   . looked a many options to make things better . pete

Indeed, as have I.  I have discovered many different ways to  accomplish this using tension, compression, torsion, and leaf springs. Because the engineering aspect of this is far too complicated for me I am leaning toward the straight and coil spring. These two types offer the most flexibility in performance because of the range of adjustment possible. Packaging is also a concern and I found the straight and compression springs better in this regard.

My focus now is on the straight spring. I am looking at sourcing 1/4” - 5/16” spring steel rod. Two of these rods would extend forward several inches past each of the tractors two frame rails, rigidly mounted on one end to the tractor frame. The other end would contact the struts of the thrower that connect to the tractor. Adjustments can be easily made by changing the length or diameter of the spring rod.
 

 

[rjg854 11,474]

18 hours ago, peter lena said:

@threepiece  no that front lift spring was not on the factory design . i have put eye bolts on the front end of frame , replacing existing original bolts , giving me a solid place to go to . having experimented with many improvements , that are not in the book . looked a many options to make things better . pete

got any pictures Pete?

[peter lena 8,720]

@threepiece  some of what i have done , possible ideas, pete