Engine swap

[kpinnc 12,088]

17 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

I know this is a mistake- but I'm gonna open this can of worm dookey anyway...

 

I probably shouldn't have started this conversation. I was afraid that it would hijack the legitimate issue of the thread, and I apologize if it did. I just wanted to clarify that repowering one of these machines can get complicated in a hurry, and today's engines are many times not compatible with what they are replacing. 

 

Loading most certainly can cause a failure. I personally caused a Kohler Command 25 to throw a rod all because I mounted an electric clutch wrong and extended the already insane side load on the crank. It took nothing more to cause the misalignment that led to extra wear and eventual failure. 

 

I don't know if ball bearings add immunity or not to axial loading, but they absolutely do for radial loading. Comparing cars with supported shafts vs pulley and belts is apples and oranges. 

 

To get back on track- if you can find a K series or Magnum Kohler that is in decent shape, and you maintain it properly- it may give another 30-40 years of service. Very few other engines can come close to that kind of life expectancy. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by kpinnc

[pfrederi 17,741]

I would defer to the engineers at WH who designed these things.   If the engine did not have ball bearings on the crankshaft then WH specified or added some other way to deal with Manual PTO loading.  For Briggs it was an external plate mounted on the engine end plate and a ball bearing.  For Kohler Twins (both KTs and Magnums) which came with sleeve crankshaft bearings WH paid extra to have an internal thrust bearing added on the PTO end of the crank.  (Doubt they would spend the extra money if they didn't think it was needed.)

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

5 hours ago, WheelhorseBob said:

belt pressure on the PTO should be referred to as radial load and the pressure of engaging the PTO should be referred to as thrust or axial load

 

Maybe a picture would help?  This drawing has the loads on opposite ends of the shaft, but the net result is the same.

 

The bearings in the engine need to be designed such that they can withstand the AXIAL THRUST from the PTO clutch trying to push the crankshaft INTO the engine.  RADIAL load pulls the shaft AGAINST the bearing.

 

 

Only engines with proper AXIAL THRUST rated bearings should be used.

 

An ELECTRIC CLUTCH does not produce AXIAL thrust the way that the the 'standard' WH MANUAL PTO assembly does.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[kpinnc 12,088]

Again, I hope I did not give the OP more than he wanted in this thread. I just wanted to be sure and give him information that he could make an informed decision on the replacement engine. Wheel Horses that won't carry a mower deck, snow blower or tiller can run with almost any engine. But if you plan to use the tractor to work with (engaging that manual PTO), it's best to use an engine that won't give you problems later.

 

I want to help keep these old machines going, and not going to scrap!

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

2 hours ago, kpinnc said:

repowering one of these machines can get complicated in a hurry

 

Again, no brick walls that can't be overcome... but definitely some... 

 

 

2 hours ago, kpinnc said:

hijack the legitimate issue of the thread

I don't think so. Guys need to be made aware of these things... these conversations need to be talked out among gear-heads. Somebody else... potentially to infinity, will read this and get informed... particularly since there are good engines, bad engines, and VERY bad engines...

 

Some guys might want to go really cheap and buy something like an Ironton... predator... or the like... and do a bunch of work... but have a failure. 

 

Hopefully by what we have said here, guys will be able to avoid some headaches... 

 

I would say, as others have said here... if you have to swap, either going with Kohler repower, or if that cost is too much, going with an engine package that has been built solidly, and durably... which I have already mentioned. To other guys, I might recommend a predator... or something cheaper. Not for this application. My...

 

Don

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

7 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

The only way I know of is to remove a cylinder head and measure the bore & stroke

In that case, I may never know...

[jtrosp1980 89]

I would rather be informed with to much information that not have enough and have the headache 

[bds1984 1,435]

16 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

I have a GT-1600...isn't that a 16 hp ?

 

Yes, 16 HP.  Your model number is 422437 according to tractordata.com if you have an original engine.  With there being a 3 in that character position, you should have a ball bearing supported crankshaft.  Most 16 HP, horizontal crankshaft versions I've came across are usually a 402427 that use a sleeve or plain bearings and are found in pretty much anything that isn't a WH.  If this were a C161 twin, it would be a 401407 with a plain bearing but WH specified an external thrust plate/bearing/washer to handle the axial load of their PTO.  If this were my engine, and I absolutely had to settle my curiosity, I'd be tearing the engine apart to measure the bore/stroke and inspecting the crank for ball bearings.  In good running order, these big twin Briggs are great engines that snarl with the best of them, but get a bad reputation for some of them being installed on cheap mowers owned/maintained by cheap people.

[bds1984 1,435]

16 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

I have a GT-1600...isn't that a 16 hp ?

 

Yes, 16 HP.  Your model number is 422437 according to tractordata.com if you have an original engine.  With there being a 3 in that character position, you should have a ball bearing supported crankshaft.  Most 16 HP, horizontal crankshaft versions I've came across are usually a 402427 that use a sleeve or plain bearings and are found in pretty much anything that isn't a WH.  If this were a C161 twin, it would be a 401407 with a plain bearing but WH specified an external thrust plate/bearing/washer to handle the axial load of their PTO.  If this were my engine, and I absolutely had to settle my curiosity, I'd be tearing the engine apart to measure the bore/stroke and inspecting the crank for ball bearings.  In good running order, these big twin Briggs are great engines that snarl with the best of them, but get a bad reputation for some of them being installed on cheap mowers owned/maintained by cheap people.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

46 minutes ago, bds1984 said:

found in pretty much anything that isn't a WH

 

Except for my MONSTER pressure washer!  If I ever 'lose' my Series I KT-17, that pressure washer is going to be 'engine-less' !  

[kpinnc 12,088]

6 hours ago, jtrosp1980 said:

I would rather be informed with to much information that not have enough and have the headache

 

I'm glad you feel that way. Sometimes I lose the ability to just leave well enough alone, and not to mention I have been diagnosed as being "shut up" gene deficient...

 

I wanted a second opinion about that diagnosis once, so I discussed it with my wife. She confirmed it for me!

 

I can never make things simple. I can't tell you how many times I've broke something just because I thought "one more" whatever would make it better. It makes my builds way better, but I spend alot of time fixing stuff I broke in the process!

Edited October 6, 2021 by kpinnc

[ebinmaine 67,602]

29 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

dignosed as being "shut up" gene deficient

Yepp  me too. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

can never make things simple. I can't tell you how many times I've broke something just because I thought "one more" whatever would make it better. It makes my builds way better, but I spend alot of time fixing stuff I broke in the process

 

Yeah well you know maybe I might be a little bit slightly kind of like that.

 

My other half has definitely reminded me a few times that there's a legitimate difference between "Bear tight"  and "regular tight" when nearly any type of fastener is involved...

 

[Maxwell-8 4,277]

Are there any small engine's still made in America? 

I know Yanmar still makes their 1 cyl diesel in Italy.

[kpinnc 12,088]

2 hours ago, Maxwell-8 said:

Are there any small engine's still made in America? 

 

Vanguards are still made here. Casting and everything. The V twins were originally built in Japan, but now made here.

 

Duromax is also made here.

 

Generac is made here.

 

Some Kohlers, believe it or not are still made here. Split manufacturing with China on others.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by kpinnc

[jtrosp1980 89]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Yepp  me too. 

 

 

 

Yeah well you know maybe I might be a little bit slightly kind of like that.

 

My other half has definitely reminded me a few times that there's a legitimate difference between "Bear tight"  and "regular tight" when nearly any type of fastener is involved...

 

Just tell her Thomas Edison didn't make the light bulb on the first try had to break things to get it right

[kpinnc 12,088]

2 minutes ago, jtrosp1980 said:

Just tell her Thomas Edison didn't make the light bulb on the first try had to break things to get it right

 

I'd feel bad setting her expectations that high.... 

[ebinmaine 67,602]

5 minutes ago, jtrosp1980 said:

Just tell her Thomas Edison didn't make the light bulb on the first try had to break things to get it right

I'll run that by her. 

 

Her response:

"Thomas Edison likely didn't have an intelligent wife helping him."

 

 

 

Ok ok ok. Gotta admit the BBT may have offered to help me a time or two.... Thousand. 

[ebinmaine 67,602]

9 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I'd feel bad setting her expectations that high.... 

Oh no no no no. 

Its fine. 

She lives with ME. 

 

Her expectations are REALLY low. 

 

[kpinnc 12,088]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Oh no no no no. 

Its fine. 

She lives with ME. 

 

Her expectations are REALLY low. 

 

Is it odd that even though we haven't met personally, I completely understand? 

 

We men all seem to get to this same point I guess!

 

My wife says having my children helped her understand my "ways" after watching the kids grow up- helped her understand why I do what I do. Made no sense to me at all. And I just spilled my Fruity Pebbles while typing this...

[ebinmaine 67,602]

8 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

And I just spilled my Fruity Pebbles while typing this..

[Lee1977 6,666]

3 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

He still has a young son, that's why he has Fruity Pebbles. 

Eric your still young enough to have Fruity Pebbles if you want them. I think you said you were five. 

 

[jtrosp1980 89]

32 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Oh no no no no. 

Its fine. 

She lives with ME. 

 

Her expectations are REALLY low. 

 

Dam

[ebinmaine 67,602]

21 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

 I think you said you were five. 

 

Yessir. Correct. 

 

But only when I'm feeling old. 

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

6 hours ago, bds1984 said:

Your model number is 422437 according to tractordata.com if you have an original engine.  With there being a 3 in that character position, you should have a ball bearing supported crankshaft.  

@bds1984...Thanks for the info., but unless I'm looking at something wrong at tractordata.com, the 1984 GT-1600 has a engine model # 402437 and the number 422437 is the 1984 GT-1800...

Am I looking at something wrong ?

[kpinnc 12,088]

I like that site for the occasional quick reference, but don't place much faith in it.

Edited October 7, 2021 by kpinnc