Engine swap

[Snoopy11 5,714]

The above picture is right before I had to do some grinding on the molding tab that hangs across in the way of the rod bolt... (clearances must be made for the Billet rod... since the rod bolts hang down so far... nothing to do with a stock engine).

 

Not shown for that reason, but thought I would explain...

 

Anyhoo... you can see the bearing in the background...

 

Don

Edited October 5, 2021 by Snoopy11

[Snoopy11 5,714]

Even the balance shaft is ball bearing supported (shown in second picture).

 

Don

[ebinmaine 67,602]

First things first let me just say that I'm not by a long shot disagreeing that a ball bearing supported crankshaft is a great thing.

 

I'm 100% on board with that.

 

Second, let me just say that I am not by a long shot a mechanical engineer or anything that's ever been close to one to the best of my knowledge.

 

 

Above said, what I am intending to express when I say  SIDE LOAD is the fact that the manual PTO on a wheel horse is bolted to the engine block and or frame. When the manual PTO is engaged it puts a tremendous amount of outward stress on the crankshaft. 

 

Ball bearings on the crankshaft are a wonderful thing to help with the rotational direction stresses that the engine will be incurring.

I'm not sure however, that they help with the side load stresses unless the ball bearing as an assembly has some sort of a side flange to it.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

8 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

tremendous amount of outward stress on the crankshaft

Very good input!

 

That makes sense... I guess the looming question is... what exactly is the major difference between what is stock, and what we are talking about here? 

 

I don't know who can answer that... LOL

 

@953 nut... maybe?

 

Don

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

I get the feeling that you would have to take your stock engine apart, take a new engine apart, compare parts, and see what is different. Not a lot of guys have experience with all kinds of engines... I personally know quite a few of engines... not really being able to tell them apart if you took them apart and threw them in a pile...  

 

Don

[jtrosp1980 89]

Unfortunately you guys are over my education level I will have to 📚 

[jtrosp1980 89]

Don't the pto clutch take most of the pressure you are describing 

[jtrosp1980 89]

I just got done reading a old forum who you spray the head gasket with a copper sealer or put on dry

[8ntruck 7,016]

The ability to absorb the PTO clutch side load on the crank shaft depends on what kind of ball bearing is used.  Some ball bearings can only support radial loads.  The ball bearings designed for thrust loads have differently shaped races for the thrust load.  The bearing number will eventually lead you to load specs. describing the radial and lateral (if any) loads.

 

Wheel Horse used add on plates and thrust bearing on some engines to handle the thrust load.

 

There seems to be some discussion about ball vs plain crank bearings here.  I'll just add a comment here that the majority of automotive crank shaft bearings are plain bearings.  Have been for more than a century.  In the earlier years, many automotive engines used splash oiling systems similar to the Kohler K series.  Ran at similar speeds, too.

[ebinmaine 67,602]

1 hour ago, jtrosp1980 said:

Don't the pto clutch take most of the pressure you are describing 

To be technically correct the PTO creates the side pressure. 

 

One side of the PTO is connected to the engine block. One side is connected to the crankshaft. 

The squeeze is what pulls the crankshaft towards the outside of the engine. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, jtrosp1980 said:

I just got done reading a old forum who you spray the head gasket with a copper sealer or put on dry

 

I install mine dry. 

[lynnmor 7,308]

1 hour ago, jtrosp1980 said:

Don't the pto clutch take most of the pressure you are describing 

 

No, that pressure that is placed on the PTO clutch is transmitted to the crankshaft.  The crankshaft is then pushing against a thrust bearing, whether it is a plain bearing or a ball bearing designed to take lateral loads.

 

Plain thrust bearings will have a considerable amount of surface area while a ball bearing will have a narrow line of contact at each ball.  Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

[lynnmor 7,308]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

To be technically correct the PTO creates the side pressure. 

 

One side of the PTO is connected to the engine block. One side is connected to the crankshaft. 

The squeeze is what pulls the crankshaft towards the outside of the engine. 

 

I install mine dry. 

 

Actually the push is the opposite direction.

 

I use a light spray of the copper sealing stuff.

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

3 hours ago, kpinnc said:

Almost no horizontal engine currently manufactured uses ball bearings on the PTO shaft anymore- and some that were used by WH never did. None of the twin cylinders (Onan, Kohler, Briggs) did,

Aww man !... My 1984 Work Horse with the twin Briggs must not have ball bearings...may as well carry it to the scrap yard !

And I had just started a thread on a refresh of the machine...

[ebinmaine 67,602]

15 minutes ago, Horse Newbie said:

Aww man !... My 1984 Work Horse with the twin Briggs must not have ball bearings...may as well carry it to the scrap yard !

And I had just started a thread on a refresh of the machine...

I don't think that'll be necessary. 

But if you really don't want it bring it up to me. 

 

 

[jtrosp1980 89]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

To be technically correct the PTO creates the side pressure. 

 

One side of the PTO is connected to the engine block. One side is connected to the crankshaft. 

The squeeze is what pulls the crankshaft towards the outside of the engine. 

 

 

 

 

I install mine dry. 

Ok thanks 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

From what information about the bearings that I have been able to find... the type of ball bearings that are found in Duromax and Carroll Stream engines can handle these side loads... 

 

However, the ball bearings found in Troy and Predator engines are much, MUCH different than those in Duromax and Carroll Stream engines.

 

These bearings are also used in Kohler engines... by the way... 

 

 

Predator bearings look like this:

 

 

You can see a pretty big difference here...

 

Don

[kpinnc 12,088]

1 hour ago, Horse Newbie said:

My 1984 Work Horse with the twin Briggs must not have ball bearings...

 

Nah, I think some twin Briggs have bearings. Just like some of them have oil filters and some didn't. 

 

My point was that many engines that are considered great didn't have them. My personal preference is that if I can have ball bearings, I want them.

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,714]

14 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

if I can have ball bearings, I want them

 

Don

[bds1984 1,435]

1 hour ago, Horse Newbie said:

Aww man !... My 1984 Work Horse with the twin Briggs must not have ball bearings...may as well carry it to the scrap yard !

And I had just started a thread on a refresh of the machine...

 

18 HP Briggs will have ball bearings, the rest will not unless the second-to-last digit in the model number is a 3 or 4.

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

41 minutes ago, bds1984 said:

 

18 HP Briggs will have ball bearings, the rest will not unless the second-to-last digit in the model number is a 3 or 4.

I have a GT-1600...isn't that a 16 hp ?

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

Just from what I've seen, unless I didn't notice, my Briggs twin is missing the engine ID sticker. Any other way to ID the engine other than just guessing based on the year of tractor and hp ?

Edited October 6, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[ebinmaine 67,602]

6 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

I have a GT-1600...isn't that a 16 hp ?

Yes it is. 

 

Don't be the least bit concerned about not having ball bearings. 

On road vehicles don't either. 

 

[ebinmaine 67,602]

6 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

Just from what I've seen, unless I didn't notice, my Briggs twin is missing the engine ID sticker. Any other way to ID the engine other than just guessing based on the year of tractor and hp ?

 

The only way I know of is to remove a cylinder head and measure the bore & stroke. 

 

[WheelhorseBob 1,549]

Interesting thread. For the sake of keeping everyone on the same page, belt pressure on the PTO should be referred to as radial load and the pressure of engaging the PTO should be referred to as thrust or axial load. Someone said it before me but it is easier to follow that way.

 

I’m only in favor of engine swaps if the stock engine is beyond repair or going to a bigger version of the same type engine. K series to bigger K series etc. I also know that several companies have offered repower kits that are designed to ensure everything works as it should. I would consider those if I could afford it. This is just me and my 2 cents. Of course it’s yours and you should do what suits you.

Edited October 6, 2021 by WheelhorseBob

[WheelhorseBob 1,549]

Btw, I noticed a Kohler M10 in the classifieds just now. That would be a nice repower if the Tecumseh cannot be saved.