607 transmission binding when coasting (among other issues)

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Hi all,

This is a new one for me. I bought a non-running 607 with a repower. Because it was repowered the belt guard was removed and lost to the mists of time. Since then one of the POs put these pegs on (pictured below) to allow the clutch to still function. When it was being loaded onto the trailer yesterday we noticed the rear axle locked up and only rolled backwards. Hmm. Strange. We then proceeded to take it home. I got it running and naturally tried to drive it. It kept abruptly stopping as if the tranny was locking up. So I changed the sludge from the transmission (in the green pan below). The drain plug on the bottom got stripped so I opened the fill port on the side/top of the tranny and jacked up the front to allow most of the sludge out. I had planned on changing it again soon to flush it out. It rolled nicely but still only in reverse. I added some 80w-90 gear oil and about a 1/4 - 1/2 a quart of MMO. I tried to drive it today to work the new oil through it lurched a little like before but I soon got it to work. This is where it gets interesting, it seems whenever the engine isn’t turning the tranny i.e. coasting the tranny locks up. I continued to drive it and just ride the brakes if I went downhill. Everything seemed fine. The PO said he was going to use it for tractor pulling, so there is a smaller pulley on the engine. Because the pulley is smaller the belt slips, so I slid it out on the crankshaft more to tighten it but this didn’t allow the clutch to work so I moved it back. Now the belt doesn’t seem to slip at all but now you can’t shift without grinding gears. So I parked it. I later noticed a small oil puddle underneath the transmission. I have no idea what is happening, I think I need to do a transmission tear down but any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Andrew

[ebinmaine 67,603]

53 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

transmission tear down

That's going to be your answer right there. 

 

You need to get that box of gears opened up and see what's going on in there.

 

54 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

put these pegs on

 

Those will help.

I do NOT believe that is enough to keep from grinding gears.

I do believe it is necessary to have at least the bottom of the belt supported so that it doesn't sag when you push the clutch in.

 

If the belt sags, it can't go forward on the engine pulley which releases the tension.

That's actually to be most likely the reason your gears are grinding. Partial or very little release of tension.

 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

3 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

That's going to be your answer right there. 

 

You need to get that box of gears opened up and see what's going on in there.

 

 

Those will help.

I do NOT believe that is enough to keep from grinding gears.

I do believe it is necessary to have at least the bottom of the belt supported so that it doesn't sag when you push the clutch in.

 

If the belt sags, it can't go forward on the engine pulley which releases the tension.

That's actually to be most likely the reason your gears are grinding. Partial or very little release of tension.

 

AHA. I will get on that soon. Thanks,

Andrew

[stevasaurus 22,764]

What's in that bucket??  Did you clean it out before you drained the oil??

 

I really can't think of anything that might be giving you those issues.  One or two very bad bearings might do this., that is my best guess.  You have to drop the trans and open it...clean it out and see what is not right.  Do you have the capability to re-tap the drain hole??  There are options.  Do you have the manuals and videos?

[WheelHorse520H 708]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

What's in that bucket??  Did you clean it out before you drained the oil??

Pine needles, I drained the oil then let it sit overnight then ran it today and flushed it.

 

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

I really can't think of anything that might be giving you those issues.  One or two very bad bearings might do this., that is my best guess.  You have to drop the trans and open it...clean it out and see what is not right.

So, I adjusted the belt and tested it but noticed it didn’t seize up like it did earlier when I was coasting. I think I just need to keep using the MMO to break everything down, I went up and down hills and it made a racket but didn’t stop and start again.

 

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

Do you have the capability to re-tap the drain hole??

I might, but it was the head that stripped not the actual threads.

 

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

There are options.  Do you have the manuals and videos?

No.

Thanks for all the help I think the MMO is doing good, the stuff I put in last night is the lighter color oil and the stuff that was in there when I got it is the darker spot.

EDIT: one last thing I would like to note is I made an assumption. It has already been semi-disproven, I thought there was internal damage but when I drained the oil both times I never saw any metal flakes indicating damage.

Edited August 11, 2021 by WheelHorse520H

[ebinmaine 67,603]

2 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

was the head that stripped not the actual threads

That's unfortunately common enough.  

They get rusty with age and lose size then get reefed on in attempt to remove. 

 

Can you get a vise grip tool clamped on the plug?

 

It really does need to come out so you can properly drain the transmission.  

 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

Can you get a vise grip tool clamped on the plug?

 

It really does need to come out so you can properly drain the transmission.

I thought of that before I stripped the head and forgot about it. I will do that next week as I am away for a couple of days. I did soak it in WD-40 on the outside and the MMO on the inside should make it easier to get out.

[ebinmaine 67,603]

4 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

. I did soak it in WD-40 on the outside and the MMO on the inside should make it easier to get out

Marvel is excellent stuff. 

 

Just an FYI... WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, Formula 40. 

 

"In 1953, in a small lab in San Diego, California, the fledgling Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry.

 

It took them 40 attempts to get their water displacing formula to work, but on the 40th attempt, they got it right in a big way. WD-40 Multi Use Product was born. WD-40 stands for Water Displacement, 40th formula. That’s the name straight out of the lab book used by the chemist who developed the product."

 

 

Original WD is not now, nor ever was, a penetrant. 

They DO make an excellent penetrating oil formula. 

Another great one is the old school Liquid Wrench.  

 

You can heat the drain plug to some extent but I think getting a proper grip on it will solve the issue.  

[WheelHorse520H 708]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Just an FYI... WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, Formula 40. 

I know it’s better for that but I have had some luck with it, maybe just coincidences but it has helped. MMO is what I swear by though, my dad has a friend who restored an old Honda engine. It was seized when he got it but he added some marvel and a while later he was running the engine. And as I learned recently it helps shine paint. 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the I know this is a problem but the shift boot is ripped in, well, almost shredded. I am going to order one soon though, I found jackssmallengines.com has one for like 8 bucks.

[ebinmaine 67,603]

Jacks is decent but charges too much for freight. 

We have our own Wheelhorsepartsandmore that will have them too.  

 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Jacks is decent but charges too much for freight. 

We have our own Wheelhorsepartsandmore that will have them too.  

 

I’ll check there. I’m interested in this wheelhorsepartsandmore. I have browsed the website before who owns it? I like the banner at the top, the writing looks just like it does on the tractors.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Never mind, just read the ‘who we are’ section

[stevasaurus 22,764]

 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

What parts/gaskets do I need to do this tear down? If everything inside the tranny is intact how much do you guys estimate the cost will be? Thanks,

Andrew

P.S. I watched the videos that @stevasaurus made, it seems simple enough to get done in a couple of days if I have all the parts.

Edited August 13, 2021 by WheelHorse520H

[ebinmaine 67,603]

18 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

What parts/gaskets do I need to do this tear down?

At the bare minimum you're going to need two axle seals, input seal, brake shaft seal, case gasket, shift boot, drain plug, and whatever you're using to flush and clean the inside of the case out such as diesel fuel or brake clean, carb clean, etc.

 

IIFF those are all the parts you need you're going to be well under 100 even after chemicals and refilling it.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

I can swing a $100. What gaskets do you recommend? What have you used that worked well? I know you shop around a lot. Thanks for all the help.

Edited August 13, 2021 by WheelHorse520H

[stevasaurus 22,764]

axle seals & brake shaft (3).......SKF #9815

input shaft seal......SKF #7410

gasket..................#3912

shift boot for a #5053 transmission.

90 wt gear oil...approx 2 qts

 

I would wait until you have it opened and cleaned out before ordering, just to see if all of your bearings are OK.  Lowell at Wheelhorse parts & more has all the stuff you would need.  He is in our vendor section.  

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Should I keep driving it with the MMO and flushing it out or should I just bust it open and get to work cleaning?

[rjg854 11,385]

I think the 1st thing I'd do is get that drain plug out of the bottom of the transmission, and see what comes out of it.  Put in a new drain plug and flush it again with diesel, and check it again.  If it was still not quite right, then, I'd open it up.  Just don't work it to hard while going through the steps, work thru all the gears. Jack the front of the tractor as high as you can to try and drain it completely.

 

You did say it was shifting and sounding better with what you've done already, correct?  If that's the case, I don't think you'd hurt it worse than it already is.  That's my opinion, anyway. Take it with a grain of salt. You know what they say about opinions, right?  

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Ok, I’ll get a can and some diesel later. And yes, it is working better with new fluid in it. And then better once I changed it again.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Changed my mind on flushing it. I pulled it off today so I can tear into it bright and early tomorrow. For the record, if your drain plug is stuck and you don’t want to spill oil everywhere you should have someone balance the tranny while you raise the frame. Don’t ask how I know.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Alright fellas, all torn down and found one major issue. All but 1 or 2 bearings have broken and disassembled. Photos and more details coming soon.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

The bearings have the little rods in them (first photo from a bearing that had just started to loose them), and one in almost all the bearings broke. This made the rest of them fall out over time, as they fell out they got ground up causing the lurching described early on. The teeth on the gears are all okay thankfully. So I need new seals and some bearings. The loud whine I get when I am coasting is caused by the bearings for the axle which would occasionally bind when turned by hand. Does anyone know how to remove the gear in the second photo, I couldn’t get it off the shaft. I took off the input pulley but the key is stuck in the keyway.

The following arrows point to the bearings that I need. I do not know the names of these bearings or what size or anything so any help is appreciated.

In the bottom photo is there a bearing in the input gear? There were broken parts of on in there but I don’t know if they just floated in with the oil. Thanks,

Andrew.

Edited August 17, 2021 by WheelHorse520H

[pfrederi 17,741]

you can find the bearing numbers you need in the post pinned to eh top of this section...or Wheel horse parts and more in the vendor section has sets of everything you need...