Electrical question

[Gregor 4,846]

I am running the new wire for my newly installed 220 Volts AC in the garage. I am running the wire in plastic, surface mount wire mold, screwed to the wall. My electrical panel in the garage is in the wall, no way to access it to add a wire, so I am tieing the wire into my 50 amp welder outlet, and taking off from there. I bought a small disconnect box, and a double pole 30 amp breaker for the AC to also be surface mounted.  Going through this disconnect, and then into the 20 amp, 220 volt, AC outlet. My trouble is, there is now way to "correctly" access the disconnect box with my wire mold. BTW  The plug on the AC unit has a GFCI button. What I would really like to do is, forget the disconnect box. Bear in mind, my welder outlet is on a 50 amp double pole breaker. Does this sound like am OK idea?  Or a really bad idea?  Thanls  Greg

[953 nut 55,099]

28 minutes ago, Gregor said:

My electrical panel in the garage is in the wall, no way to access it to add a wire,

I would suggest you cut the drywall above (or below) the panel and use the proper cable clamp to secure the wire to the box. Plastic wire mold isn't very much protection for your wire, EMT conduit would be much better.

[Gregor 4,846]

1 minute ago, 953 nut said:

isn't very much protection for your wire,

95% of it is 8' off the floor. I'm not worried about protecting it too much.

[Gregor 4,846]

A little bit ago, an electrician friend of mine pulled up across the street. I snagged him, and brought him over, and posed my question to him. He said with the GFCI in the plug for the AC, he saw no problem at all.

[Roger R 442]

To be correct you should go direct to the panel since your AC and welder really should be on their own circuits.  Carefully cut out a piece of drywall spanning the studs which your panel in mounted between. (replace it when done with screws for easy removal for later projects) Incidentally wire mold does make adapter fittings for conduit and / or box access, but may not be available at the box stores.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Roger R

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

@Gregor

 

What gauge wire are you running Greg?

 

If you come off a 50A branch circuit you need to stay with the same (6ga?) wire.

 

A GFCI is NOT an overcurrent device and really has no bearing on this.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

12   $70 for 50"   `10 ga,  $140 for 50"

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

3 minutes ago, Gregor said:

12   $70 for 50"   `10 ga,  $140 for 50"

 

You can't connect that to a 50A branch.

 

You pulling permits?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

You can't connect that to a 50A branch.

 

You pulling permits?

Electrician said it was ok, I'm running with it.

 

No, I didn't.

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

1 minute ago, Gregor said:

Electrician said it was ok

 

I don't know how to react to that other than to say that he may not have understood that you are thinking of connecting 12 or 10 gauge to a 50A branch.  That's NOT OK.

 

Codes require individual circuits for those appliances as Roger said.

 

I'm SMH here wondering why a licensed sparky would suggest that it's OK.

[Gregor 4,846]

1 minute ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I don't know how to react to that other than to say that he may not have understood that you are thinking of connecting 12 or 10 gauge to a 50A branch.  That's NOT OK.

 

Codes require individual circuits for those appliances as Roger said.

 

I'm SMH here wondering why a licensed sparky would suggest that it's OK.

I'm sure all of us have done some things that may not quite have been up to code. It's quite possible he may not have done it for me, due to a liability issue, but he assured me, it would work.

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

3 minutes ago, Gregor said:

assured me, it would work.

 

Work, sure, it will get the juice to where you want it, 

 

But SAFE, CORRECT, and to CODE?  NOPE, not in the wildest dreams.

[Gregor 4,846]

3 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

and to CODE?  NOPE, not in the wildest dreams.

I forgot to ask him about that part.

[oliver2-44 9,700]

 

4 hours ago, Gregor said:

, so I am tieing the wire into my 50 amp welder outlet, and taking off from there. I bought a small disconnect box, and a double pole 30 amp breaker for the AC to also be surface mounted.  Going through this disconnect, and then into the 20 amp, 220 volt, AC outlet. 

If you installed the disconnect box and a 20 amp  30 amp double pole breaker at the 50 amp welder outlet it would protect a #12  wire run to the 20 amp 220 volt outlet.  I'm not a code expert, but if your doing away with the welder plug this should probable meet code.  if your keeping the welder outlet, not a good ideal. 

 

1 hour ago, Roger R said:

To be correct you should go direct to the panel since your AC and welder really should be on their own circuits.  Carefully cut out a piece of drywall spanning the studs which your panel in mounted between. (replace it when done with screws for easy removal for later projects) Incidentally wire mold does make adapter fittings for conduit and / or box access, but may not be available at the box stores.

This really would be a good way to do it.  You could make a removable plywood panel to cover the hole. The wire mold could run to the plywood panel, then the wire can exit the back of the wire mold  into a hole in the plywood panel and run inside the wall without a conduit. Then use an appropriate cable clamp/protector where you enter the bottom of the main breaker box 

[Roger R 442]

53 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

II'm SMH here wondering why a licensed sparky would suggest that it's OK.

 

Over the years I have been amazed, shocked and horrified by what "Electricians" have installed. ("My brother in law, cousin, neighbor's friend etc...  is an Electrician and he wired it for me)  I have a large file of photos of horror stories from the work of these "experts"     

[squonk 41,038]

You can cut the drywall at a angle. Make the appropriate connections at the panel with the correct sized wire. Then reinstall the cut piece of drywall back in the hole. The cut edges are pie shaped and a little mud and it's done. No screws no tape. We did this all the time working in the hospital. 

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

13 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Plastic wire mold isn't very much protection for your wire, EMT conduit would be much better.

 

One thing to note here... I admit that I don't know the rules regarding 'WireMold', plastic or metal, I have never used it myself, but one is not supposed to run NM cable through conduit.  For that one should use THHN individual wires. 

 

[edit: I just asked Mrs. Google about this and it appears that NM cable in conduit is now OK... I don't believe this has always been true though, more research needed!

Quote

While the National Electrical Code does not expressly forbid inserting NM cable inside conduit, it is, in practice, very difficult to do so and very few professional electricians will do such an installation.

]

 

The rules may be the same for the WireMold but I'm just not certain about that.

 

I'm firmly in the "open the drywall" school on this one. 

 

There are no shorcuts or "not to code" situations allowed when it comes to electrical wiring!

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

All the wire for the AC is ran. Through wire mold. I wasn't about to just staple romex to my walls. My walls, and ceiling are sheated with 1/2" plywood, and insulated. There is no possible way to pull a wire through. My panel is full. There is no room for another breaker. I have a LOT of outlets and light fixtures, in my garage, and they are split up between many breakers. I know this may not be the correct way, the code way, or even the safest way, but it was the only really viable way. If I suddenly disappear in 6 months, you will know why.

[squonk 41,038]

You could have used a surface box with the AC outlet, run conduit on the outside of the wall, Pulled # 12 or #10 THHN thru the conduit to another surface box near the panel. Then a hole in the drywall to access the back side of the box and panel. Then use a couple of split breakers for some of your lights to free up room and then a DP breaker for your AC. It was nice knowing you. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by squonk

[Jeff-C175 7,199]

14 minutes ago, squonk said:

You could have used a surface box with the AC outlet, run conduit on the outside of the wall, Pulled # 12 or #10 THHN thru the conduit to another surface box near the panel. Then a hole in the drywall to access the back side of the box and panel. Then use a couple of split breakers for some of your lights to free up room and then a DP breaker for your AC. It was nice knowing you. 

 

Another possibility might be to install a small sub-panel in place of the 50A welder outlet.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[pfrederi 17,674]

If you have  square D panel you can buy half width 120 breakers replace some existing 120 circuits with those.  Then you can free up some some space for the 220 breaker. 

[squonk 41,038]

All of the major brands of panels offer the split/half breakers

[Racinbob 11,045]

8 hours ago, Gregor said:

All the wire for the AC is ran. Through wire mold. I wasn't about to just staple romex to my walls. My walls, and ceiling are sheated with 1/2" plywood, and insulated. There is no possible way to pull a wire through. My panel is full. There is no room for another breaker. I have a LOT of outlets and light fixtures, in my garage, and they are split up between many breakers. I know this may not be the correct way, the code way, or even the safest way, but it was the only really viable way. If I suddenly disappear in 6 months, you will know why.

Just how many people are working in your garage using power tools at the same time? Let's see now. I have a miter saw @ 15a, table saw, another 15, router table, drill press, belt sander and others not even counting the handhelds. I can only use one at a time. I'm betting you could easily free up some circuits. Also, I've never come across a stud wall that I couldn't fish.

There's been some good suggestions here. Remember, there's a good reason that the majority of home fires are electrical related. 

[Gregor 4,846]

I really do appreciate everyones advice, I really do, and I understand your reasoning on all points. I may live to regret how I did this, but it is done. The reason for the original post was to ask if the GFCI on the AC plug would be adequate, without the 30 amp breaker. I guess I didn't make that very clear.

  All !   Greg

[squonk 41,038]

9 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I really do appreciate everyones advice, I really do, and I understand your reasoning on all points. I may live to regret how I did this, but it is done. The reason for the original post was to ask if the GFCI on the AC plug would be adequate, without the 30 amp breaker. I guess I didn't make that very clear.

  All !   Greg

All that GFCI will do is protect you if there is leakage to ground in the A.C. Itself. That's it.