B80 LSD Transmission

[Bill D 1,926]

A gentleman near me has a B80.  After looking at it today, it appears to have 1 1/8" axle shafts.  Any chance it has the limited slip differential?  Any way to tell from the outside?  Thanks.

[ebinmaine 67,605]

I'm thinking maybe a 1976 or 77 B80 with an 8 speed may have the 1-1/8" axles factory. 

No limited slip though. 

LSD was only on SIX speeds and some hydros from 1967 to 1970. 

[Bill D 1,926]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

I'm thinking maybe a 1976 or 77 B80 with an 8 speed may have the 1-1/8" axles factory. 

No limited slip though. 

LSD was only on SIX speeds and some hydros from 1967 to 1970. 

Would a charger 12 have the LSD?

[pfrederi 17,741]

5 minutes ago, Bill D said:

Would a charger 12 have the LSD?

Yes

[ebinmaine 67,605]

6 hours ago, Bill D said:

Would a charger 12 have the LSD?

 

6 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Yes

 

 

As long as it's within that year range. 

I believe '71 and '72 were open diffs. 

[cafoose 3,355]

Is there a list somewhere of all the models that did have the LSD? And/or a transmission number? Maybe @stevasaurus can pin it to the top of the transmissions and transaxles section for future reference?

[ebinmaine 67,605]

9 minutes ago, cafoose said:

list

I'd like to see that too.

 

It's my impression that all of the six speeds from 1967, 8, 9 had it but I don't know which of the hydros or if it was in any eight speeds in 1970

[pfrederi 17,741]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

 

As long as it's within that year range. 

I believe '71 and '72 were open diffs. 

 

 

Parts Manual for 1972 Charger 12 shows the LSD spring and 10 pinion.  Confusion may come from fact that by then the Charger 10 had 4 pinion differential.

 

[pfrederi 17,741]

One caveat...When 10 pinion LSD failed WH was recommending replacement of the differential with 8 pinion open...( New parts were not available for the 10 pinion)

[ebinmaine 67,605]

21 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

When 10 pinion LSD failed

Other than the fact that I've heard the originals were aluminum shells, do you have any thoughts as to why they are so known for failure?

 

 

[pfrederi 17,741]

13 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Other than the fact that I've heard the originals were aluminum shells, do you have any thoughts as to why they are so known for failure?

 

 

 

 

Some people can break an anvil....  The lack of new replacement parts for dealers to use,  I think, drove the replacement with 8 pinion.

 

Similar with Hydro gears.  Nothing wrong with them but when replacement was needed for what ewer reason after the switch to piston to piston  WH told dealers to swap out the whole unit as they didn't want o maintain duplicate parts inventory.

Edited August 4, 2021 by pfrederi

[stevasaurus 22,764]

@ebinmaine  I'm a little confused.  What do you mean when you say "open" differential??  Also, what do you mean when you say Aluminum Shells??  

[pfrederi 17,741]

6 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

@ebinmaine  I'm a little confused.  What do you mean when you say "open" differential??  Also, what do you mean when you say Aluminum Shells??  

I assume he meant a normal not limited slip differential.  Some 10 pinions had aluminum end caps...

[ebinmaine 67,605]

8 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

@ebinmaine  I'm a little confused.  What do you mean when you say "open" differential??  Also, what do you mean when you say Aluminum Shells??  

 

1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

I assume he meant a normal not limited slip differential.  Some 10 pinions had aluminum end caps...

 

Paul nailed it. 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

The #5060 is the only LSD that came with aluminum end caps, both the #5071 & #5073 had steel end caps.  

 

Paul, you know what assume did??  It's just that there is nothing open or closed about these differentials.  Confusing doesn't help anyone.        

 

As far as posting a list, the best thing to do is find the tractor IPL in the manual section, pull up the transmission breakdown and count the pistons on the parts break-down.  You can also do this with the hydros.    

[ebinmaine 67,605]

7 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

there is nothing open or closed about these differentials.  Confusing doesn't help anyone.

I should have worded that in a different manner such as non-locking or non-limited. 

 

As I'm sure most of us are well aware there are different kinds of limited slip or locking differentials even to the point of being a complete solid axle like an ATV or welded solid by someone.

 

The term "open"  differential applies to any differential that has no sort of locking or limiting mechanism whatsoever. That's what the vast majority of on-road differentials are. 

I can't source the origins of the term but I'll try to find it.

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,764]

The thing is Eric, Wheel Horse transmissions are not ATV transmissions.  They do not have locking differentials.  By your definition, all wheel horse transmissions are open.  Do you see what I mean??  Let's have a conversation, I'm good with that and always willing to learn something.     @ebinmaine

[ebinmaine 67,605]

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

By your definition, all wheel horse transmissions are open. 

Now see you got me thinking there. And I was doing so good all day not learning anything new.

 

My impression... Which for the record may be wrong... Is that an open differential would be all horse transmissions except for the ones with the friction spring between the 10 pinions which turns that to a limited slip.

 

I feel more research reading coming on. 

🤔

[stevasaurus 22,764]

No, it is still not locked.  The Limited Slip only works when you are going in a straight line, when you turn the wheel the differential acts like a regular differential.  That is why it is called "Limited" Slip...it is not posi-traction...and you cannot lock it.  The pinions actually "float" in the differential;...that means they are not on posts and fixed in there position.  The spring keeps the pinions in there place, and the holder that the pinions set in.  If the spring is weak, the differential will act more like an 8 pinion differential...no 2 wheel drive  "when going straight".

    Since you can not lock a 10 pinion differential (the pinions are not on posts-and there is no up and down), the puller's lean toward the 8 pinion differentials.  You can lock those because the pinions are on posts and you can change the up-down-up-down to up-up-down-down and there by lock a differential.  Great for straight, but terrible for corners.  Do you understand??  

[ebinmaine 67,605]

1 minute ago, stevasaurus said:

understand

Ahhhh.  

Yepp I gotcha now.  

 

That being used as the criteria I'd agree all Horse transmissions are Open. 

[Handy Don 12,235]

I think I followed this but now have two questions for @stevasaurus (please!)

 

How does the LS differential detect when the tractor is turning vs. when one wheel is slipping since the net effect in wheel rotation is pretty much the same, right?

Is it because when turning, the faster wheel "pushes" the pinions via the axle pressure and when slipping it's the bull gear doing the pushing?

[ebinmaine 67,605]

4 hours ago, Handy Don said:

questions

There's no real "detection" of traction loss. 

The spring riding between all 10 pinions puts enough pressure on them to keep them together when going straight but let 5 float some while turning. 

It's a rudimentary system but works quite well. 

 

Trina and I have had several experiences with her LSD transmission being able to compensate in snow/ice for her and her tractors relative light weight to me and my C160 with open differential. 

It's clear that her 2 wheels being powered is a HUGE difference over my one. 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by stevasaurus
I am going to edit your comment of C-160 with open differential...it is an 8 speed with an 8 pinion differential that when one wheel slips on ice or snow, the other wheel sits there and watches the other one turn.

[stevasaurus 22,764]

It is all about going straight.  When you go straight with the Limited Slip Differential, the spring between the pinions make it so the wheels both move in the same direction...so if one wheel hits snow or ice, the other wheel will keep moving you along.  That does not happen when you do not have Limited Slip.  An 8 pinion differential will let your left or right tire spin, or a 4 pinion differential will do the same.  You have to put your feet on the ground and move your horse in one direction or the other to get it to move.  Chains do not matter with the 4 & 8 pinions, but they do make a difference in the "Limited Slip" differentials...if you have a good spring between the ten pinions.  When you turn with a "Limited Slip Differential"  the spring is such that it lets the differential act like a differential and lets you turn with out forcing you to go straight.  This is why...if you go to buy a horse that you think has LSD and you want to see if it works...they tell you to put he front of the horse up to a tree, or fence post...put it into 1st gear and see if both wheels turn trying to push the tree or fence post over.  OK????   

[Handy Don 12,235]

Ok, I fully get the operational difference and now you've got me wanting to see and understand the innards! Springs! Pinions! I'll do some searches here for post having posted images of the guts of an LSD.

Thanks, guys!

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Handy Don

[ebinmaine 67,605]

Just now, Handy Don said:

Ok, I fully get the operational difference and now you've got me wanting to see and understand the innards! Springs! Pinions! I'll do some searches hear for someone who's posted images of the guts.

Thanks, guys!

 

Steve has a video in the transmission section that shows how those things come apart. I have an LSD differential sitting on the shelf that I can probably open and pop some pics of for you.