Help! 314-8 won't run

[csvt99 173]

I have a late 90s 314-8 that won't run. I'm thinking it is related to a sensor or alternator or something like that. Here is what I can tell you, and sorry for the long story but you know how it is: about 3 starts ago it just wouldn't start. It was odd as it always pops right off. I changed the plug, no results. Air cleaner was fine and I had replaced that this spring. I did notice a bit of oil on the air cleaner plate, not sure what that was about. Finally I added an ounce or 2 of oil because it was showing just a touch low. Then it started right up and mowed fine. The next time it started a bit hard but mowed fine. The next time I mowed I had to stop in the middle for dinner and then it would not start when I returned. Oil level is over full, so it shouldn't be that. I changed the fuel filter and then it popped right off but it shut off again moments later. Figured it was a fuel issue since I changed the filter. Now the battery is dead from all the starting. So... I put my little jumper battery pack on it and it fired right up. I was back in business. Until a half pass later when it shut off again. This time it won't make a noise, and the battery pack is not helping. The battery is testing at 14.5 v. And so is the battery from my other horse that won't start it. I had to give up and tow it up my bill back into the garage because we had to leave for vacation. 

 

Also I checked the 4 fuses and they were fine. Machine has 350 hours on it, garage kept.  Any other suggestions? Oil sentry sensor or alternator? It really feels electrical...

 

Thanks for all your help!!!

 

 

 

 

[Rob R 966]

If your engine is points with automotive coil ignition you may well have a charge - battery issue. You can easy check the battery voltage and see if it is charging by using a volt meter chk the voltage before starting then when running to see if the voltage is increasing. 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,048]

Late 1990's will be some form of magneto ignition which requires no battery power.

Need to know the tractor model and serial number or the engine model number and spec number.

 

Garry

[csvt99 173]

I'm not at home but I do actually have a picture of the engine tag...

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,048]

Engine made in 1999 so tractor model is 1999 or later.

Garry

[953 nut 55,324]

Enjoy your vacation, by time you get back you will a dozen or so suggestions to check out.       

I agree that the problem would be electrical. Any connection in the spark circuit could do this. Check the connections on the PTO, Seat and  Reverse Switch which could be causing NMIR relay to activate the Kill Relay to keep the engine from running. 

If you remove the kill relay (for testing only) there should be nothing electrical keeping the engine from starting and continuing to rum. This doesn't mean the kill relay is your problem, it is a means of ruling out engine ignition system problems.

Edited July 31, 2021 by 953 nut
kill relay

[csvt99 173]

Where is the kill relay and how do I disconnect it?

[Tuneup 1,433]

18 hours ago, csvt99 said:

Where is the kill relay and how do I disconnect it?

 

According to Garry's wiring diagram, follow the white wire from the engine directly to the relay. This is a magneto engine so cutting that white wire will allow the spark but you won't be able to shut it down unless you ground that wire at the engine. Good luck!

[csvt99 173]

Is there a way to disconnect without cutting the wire? How about pulling off the harness and making a jumper for the ground so that still works. That should work right?

[Tuneup 1,433]

Sorry, not a 300 series guy here but that white wire should have a quick connect at the relay, I would guess. Yes, I'd rather not cut either.

[csvt99 173]

Well, I have this philosophy to always check the simplest things first when diagnosing issues. Turns out it wouldn't turn over because the PTO was still engaged when it shut off on me, and in all the commotion I forgot to disengage it. So...now it starts fine with the PTO disengaged. And has a charged battery. I will give it a shot again and see if it stays running. Stay tuned!

[csvt99 173]

It died again after idling about 1-2 minutes. It was in neutral and I was not sitting on it. It's like it is running out of fuel, but it didn't sputter, just shut off. I started it up again, tried mowing and it shut off again about 70' into the pass. The manual mentions cooling fins and air passages below the engine blower possibly being clogged. I only found one hole and made sure it was clear. Any suggestions? Is bad gas a possibility? 

[Tuneup 1,433]

Sounds like your original problem. I would still remove that white lead - the kill lead. That eliminates the interrupts on the engine and limits electrical to the magneto itself. If not the issue, make sure it's getting gas. You can always rig a gravity feed to bypass the fuel system and limit the consideration to the carb - which should be cleaned anyway. I made a cheap grav feed for syncing my bike's carbs - a 4" PVC end and brass nozzle that I hang from the garage door tracks. If the fuel sys is old, just get a new cap, clean the screen, replace all the line and filter and clean the carb. You'll find a way to the cause from this direction. Anyway, I hope this is a help. Good luck!

[csvt99 173]

Thank you. I did disconnect the white lead and that didn't change anything. It makes sense to clean the carb. I will check that out next. I had checked the fuel system and replaced the fuel filter and everything seemed fine but I will still keep that in mind. It does indeed behave like it's not getting fuel.

[csvt99 173]

Check out the bowl. There is definitely gunk in there and it seems the steel fuel line could be rusty. Also, what is the black apparatus the fuel line enters after the fuel filter and could that be a source of the dirt? I also checked the fuel tank and it seems fine. I will probably be replacing the whole fuel line as I will likely have it all apart, as long as the parts are easy to get. Thanks!

[Gregor 4,846]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:45 AM, csvt99 said:

Oil level is over full, so it shouldn't be that.

I would check that again. How much over full? Motors are not known for producing oil. I am not familiar with this tractor at all. Would it be possible to replace ALL fuel lines with (quality) rubber hose? Clean the carb a good as possible. The "black apparatus" is a fuel pump, and my very well be failing.

[953 nut 55,324]

9 hours ago, csvt99 said:

Also, what is the black apparatus the fuel line enters after the fuel filter and could that be a source of the dirt?

On 7/30/2021 at 8:45 AM, csvt99 said:

Oil level is over full,

That is your fuel pump and if the diaphragm is leaking some of your gas will be going into the engine oil diluting it. DO MOT run the engine until the oil has been changed and the fuel pump replaced. I would suggest you use an electric fuel pump.

Have you been running gas with 10% ethanol? That could be what has fouled up the fuel system. Use this site to find a station that sells ethanol free gas, https://www.pure-gas.org/.

[csvt99 173]

4 hours ago, 953 nut said:

That is your fuel pump and if the diaphragm is leaking some of your gas will be going into the engine oil diluting it. DO MOT run the engine until the oil has been changed and the fuel pump replaced. I would suggest you use an electric fuel pump.

 

Have you been running gas with 10% ethanol? That could be what has fouled up the fuel system. Use this site to find a station that sells ethanol free gas, https://www.pure-gas.org/.

For the past 100 hours or so I have used ethanol free gas. I'm not sure what the previous owner did during the first 230 hrs.

 

As far as the engine oil goes, I will check that again but I think it was just a matter of me adding some because it was a touch low and I was thinking the oil sentry didn't allow it to run. I can drain some out or change it completely but I did do a full oil and filter change this spring.

 

Is there a way to test the fuel pump other than pulling the line and having it pump gas into a bucket?

 

[csvt99 173]

Which manual do I need in order to reference part numbers for the fuel system? I might as well replace as much of it as possible while I have it apart.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,048]

Here is the engine illustrated parts list

https://www.partstree.com/models/ch14-1838-kohler-command-pro-single-engine-made-for-toro-14hp/

 

Here is the tractor ipl.

Your tractor could also be a 2000 model so parts list for it in case there is a difference from 1999-2000.

Garry

[peter lena 8,637]

@csvt99 , have nothing at all like that  in my fuel system , how many  fuel filters in your line? have 1 at the back near the tank , and another just before the pump , also clear vinyl fuel rated line , also ADD STA -BIL to every drop of my gas , every time I top off  , usually the upper squeeze neck on the bottle , you could easily have a lot of crud in your fuel tank . looks to me that your fuel tank  is your constant source of carb crud , only my opinion , over 40 years with horses , never had a carb refill of crud like that . another thing i have done is to run the engine on a separate gallon of  fuel and sea foam , eliminating the  tank on tractor , fast idle clean out and verify your problem . bet your tank is the problem . pull it , clean out and blow out , install new fuel valve , (  with dielectric grease on the grommet area ) for ease of installation. other wise , you will be doing this again , been there done that , pete 

[csvt99 173]

I'm planning to replace everything in the fuel system, but hopefully not the tank. It looks clean, but I can drain the remaining gas and take a better look. This project keeps getting bigger and bigger, and my grass keeps getting longer and longer! If only it would stop raining 2" per day here in Pennsylvania.

 

Thanks for all the advice. I'm pretty much doing all of it already but I'm seeing a few tips/ changes I can implement. Always looking to improve things👍

[csvt99 173]

I drained the fuel and the tank looks fairly dirty. Not horrible but it could be cleaned. Can I just rinse it out with water, fuel, or compressed air? 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

9 hours ago, csvt99 said:

I drained the fuel and the tank looks fairly dirty. Not horrible but it could be cleaned. Can I just rinse it out with water, fuel, or compressed air? 

 

Yes you can clean it about anyway you want.  I would take out the fuel valve and grommet and flush it out with water and spray into it to break up any debris.  You can use dawn dish soap too.  Just keep going till it's clean then let it dry out in the sun.  If there's any stuck debris the water hose, or pressure washer of course, can't break loose try carb spray to break it up and maybe let soak a little then.  Then do the hose and soap.  As long as you thoroughly rinse it with water and then let it bake dry completely it will be fine. 

[953 nut 55,324]

If your fuel tank has sediment that is clinging to the walls and bottom of the tank you can take a small handful of nuts (1/4-20) and put them in the tank then agitate them to break the crud up.