10HP vs 12HP?

[vogli 86]

So, I'm looking for a 2nd tractor to fill in while I repair my current one.

 

I've owned 2 wheel horses, and both have been manual, with the 12HP k301. I've seen a 310-8 (10HP Kohler Magnum) nearby on craigslist, and it comes with a tiller...which is really tempting me. So, my question is, will I notice a 2HP difference? I've got 2.5 acres to mow, and sometimes it gets longish. I often cut and haul trailer (4'Wx6'Lx2'H) full of wood billets/chips around my property. That can be a lot of weight, but I've been limited by traction/front-end weight more than power.

 

Thoughts, opinions, advice?

Edited July 30, 2021 by vogli

[roadapples 6,983]

If grass is high a 10hp may labor some with a 42" deck. Don't think you'll notice much difference with the trailer. If you want a tiller and the price is right I'd probably go for it...

[ebinmaine 67,605]

4 hours ago, roadapples said:

If grass is high a 10hp may labor some with a 42" deck. Don't think you'll notice much difference with the trailer. If you want a tiller and the price is right I'd probably go for it...

Agreed. 

 

 

[JCM 9,177]

Great question that I have asked myself for years. Having owned a 312-8 with a 42'' SD deck for 32 years since new and recently refurbed a 310-8 of the same vintage with the same size deck I can honestly say I see no difference in the two for mowing. Yes a twin Kohler would be my choice with your acreage to mow especially if it is tall on a consistent basis. That being said towing a trailer should not matter. I also have a tiller that I picked up 8 years ago but have not yet tried it out but I doubt you would have any issues with an 8 speed transmission.

[Ed Kennell 38,225]

I agree with the above comments.        HP is not a problem for towing.     Traction for pulling and stopping is the limiting factor. 

 Every WH I have owned (8-20 HP) will spin the wheels under a dead pull.

I think 10 HP would be fine for tilling as 100% of the 10HP would be used by the tiller.     The tiller actually moves the tractor  forward.

 

Mowing with a 42"er in heavy long grass would be taxing a 10 HP.   It would work, but You would probably need to mow in a  very low gear that may not be acceptable.

[tom2p 2,394]

agree with above comments 

 

for 2.5 acres of cutting - 12hp is on the low end and 10 will be a tad lower - larger twin is better suited ... but can get the job done with 10

 

I cut around 2.5 - 3 acres ... much better and faster with 416-H compared to 312-8 ... 30-60 minutes faster ... ? ..  (toward 60 when I need to make multiple passes with 312) ... and use the same amount of fuel - one complete tank (if I'm efficient - sometimes will run out at end ;  need to refuel 312 if made multiple passes)

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by tom2p

[SPINJIM 1,981]

With that much acreage, have you considered a zero-turn for cutting grass, especially if it's thick or high?   A 10 or 12hp WH will struggle with that kind of mowing.   A zero-turn will cut your mowing time in half and do a neater job.   I have 9 Wheel Horses that I use for pulling a trailer, snow blowing, plowing, etc.;  but I wouldn't want to give up my Gravely (23hp Kawasaki) zero-turn for mowing my two acres.   For the general yard work, I'd prefer the Magnum over the K-engine, just to get rid of the points.  The K's are durable, but I have found the Magnums to be more dependable starters.   Just my personal experience.   Also, depends on condition and the hours on the two tractors?   

   Jim

Edited July 30, 2021 by SPINJIM

[kpinnc 12,088]

34 minutes ago, SPINJIM said:

With that much acreage, have you considered a zero-turn for cutting grass, especially if it's thick or high?   A 10 or 12hp WH will struggle with that kind of mowing.   A zero-turn will cut your mowing time in half and do a neater job.   I have 9 Wheel Horses that I use for pulling a trailer, snow blowing, plowing, etc.;  but I wouldn't want to give up my Gravely (23hp Kawasaki) zero-turn for mowing my two acres. 

 

I have to agree. I bought 3.5 acres, and my WH machines all got a workout. They happily trudged through it, but took entirely too long to do the job. When I bought a zero turn, it mowed in less than 1/3 of the time.

 

I'm not hating on our beloved tractors. They are all around exceptional machines that can do many jobs well. Unfortunately, if I had much over an acre or so to mow I wouldn't buy any garden tractor to do it. The only reason a zero turn is better for mowing is because it is optimized for that one job and not much else. My tractors "back up" my zero turn, but otherwise now stick to other duties.

 

If you have no other choice- and are using the tractor primarily to mow with, a hydro is the best choice. More HP is always a plus when mowing as well, as you can mow at much higher speed while maintaining quality of cut.

[clueless 3,005]

The difference should be negligible, except possibly for some taller thick grass but that's what those two sticks in front of the seat are for.

[tom2p 2,394]

my neighbor did get a zero turn - 'mid level' (?) husqvarna ... a level below commercial grade supposedly ... seems nice 

 

I've been tempted to go zero turn - but the 416-H bridges the gap between the 312 and a zero turn 

 

our property is not smooth in parts - so I don't know how much faster I could go in some areas (compared to max on the 416-H)

 

the cost of a quality zero turn ... ?  ... did not know how much more it would be ... ? ....

 

and I felt more comfortable with a Wheel Horse given the reliability and my familiarity with them (almost 50 years cutting with a Wheel Horse)

 

 

back to the zero turn ... the blades spin at a zillion rpms - and they make a heckuva lotta noise ... sounds like a helicopter is near by 
 

and clippings flying everywhere - so much my neighbor will often wear a mask / gator (in addition to ear plugs) ...,so when he is done he is covered in clippings ... ( similar time me from the crap pulled up by the Onan lol)

 

and ... not sure why ... and this is just an observation and for our property ('farm grass') not a big deal - the zero turn leaves a lot of tire marks ... not just corners - but on straight sections also ... odd because the weight should not be that high ... ? ... 

 

[vogli 86]

1 hour ago, kpinnc said:

 

I have to agree. I bought 3.5 acres, and my WH machines all got a workout. They happily trudged through it, but took entirely too long to do the job. When I bought a zero turn, it mowed in less than 1/3 of the time.

 

I'm not hating on our beloved tractors. They are all around exceptional machines that can do many jobs well. Unfortunately, if I had much over an acre or so to mow I wouldn't buy any garden tractor to do it. The only reason a zero turn is better for mowing is because it is optimized for that one job and not much else. My tractors "back up" my zero turn, but otherwise now stick to other duties.

 

If you have no other choice- and are using the tractor primarily to mow with, a hydro is the best choice. More HP is always a plus when mowing as well, as you can mow at much higher speed while maintaining quality of cut.

 

Yeah, that's reasonable advice.

 

In general, I want to minimize the number of engines I need to maintain. The wheel horse does it all, and that's what I like, even if it's sub-optimal in some use-cases. Since my primary is out of commission, I need a 2ndary that can do the same.

 

Also, during the last 35 years, I've only ever mowed with a wheel horse. So, I'll admit I'm influenced to some degree by sentimentality rather than pure pragmatism

[SPINJIM 1,981]

1 hour ago, tom2p said:

back to the zero turn ... the blades spin at a zillion rpms - and they make a heckuva lotta noise ... sounds like a helicopter is near by 
 

and clippings flying everywhere - so much my neighbor will often wear a mask / gator (in addition to ear plugs) ...,so when he is done he is covered in clippings ... ( similar time me from the crap pulled up by the Onan lol)

 

Yeh, zero-turns are noisy, but so is my WH 420.  I wear ear protection with both, moving grass or snow.   I don't cut grass on a windy day, and have never had a problem with clippings on the engine like I did with the Onans.   I guess it depends on which brand and model ZT you use.  I have lots of trees, so a ZT is perfect for my yard.

    Jim

[vogli 86]

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[Handy Don 12,235]

4 hours ago, SPINJIM said:

wear ear protection with both

[kpinnc 12,088]

6 hours ago, vogli said:

 

Also, during the last 35 years, I've only ever mowed with a wheel horse. So, I'll admit I'm influenced to some degree by sentimentality rather than pure pragmatism

 

Nothing wrong with that! I understand completely. I could probably sell my tractors and pay cash for a second zero turn, and I have sold some over the years. That being said, I just can't let some of them go. They are too capable and easy to work on. I have wanted ONE since I was a kid. I guess I went overboard...

[ebinmaine 67,605]

23 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

I have wanted ONE since I was a kid. I guess I went overboard

Oh no not really. 

Any number above the ONE is a win....

[kpinnc 12,088]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Oh no not really. 

Any number above the ONE is a win....

 

More than one and less than fifty is just "a few", right? 

 

I'd better hush. I'm hijacking a good thread.

Edited July 31, 2021 by kpinnc

[WheelhorseBob 1,549]

I have both a 310 and 312-8. I’ve been mowing with them both for 20+ years and I honestly can’t tell a difference. I’ve used a 42” recycler and 37” bagger setup interchangeably on both. I mow less than an acre so for me they work well. Btw the 310 was well used when I got it. The guy used to drive around with it on a trailer tilling gardens. So the tiller would be fine. I’m not sure where it would be a factor but my 312-8 has 1-1/8 axles and eight pinions. My 310-8 has 1” axles and four pinions.

[kpinnc 12,088]

On 7/30/2021 at 12:22 PM, tom2p said:

 

I've been tempted to go zero turn - but the 416-H bridges the gap between the 312 and a zero turn 

 

I somehow missed that remark, and I agree completely. The only "if" I would add would be if the condition of the tractor is good.

 

There is a 520-8 speed locally on Craigslist for $2200. 48 deck and electric lift already on it. Relatively low hours as I recall. While that is steep, dollar for dollar you can't find a good zero turn for that money, and we all know how rugged these tractors are. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by kpinnc

[Snoopy11 5,714]

Brother, let me tell you... some people will tell you that you won't notice a difference... but I have personally used a VAST majority of engines... from 6-12-20-25-51 horsepower... and you can tell a difference between each one of them.

 

2 horsepower is actually a lot... when you only have 10-12... see below for reasoning...

 

Every horsepower you can get is better...

 

Doesn't mean you can't get away with 10 horsepower, because you could probably get away with 6 horsepower if you are running a constant 3,600 rpm... quite honestly... but why would you want 6... when you can have double that... at 12? Why have 10... when you can have 12? Why have 12... when you can have 25?

 

My nutty logic continues in my build... why have 25... when you can have double that at 51...?

 

I said all that to say this...

 

Where you notice horsepower loss is in lower rpms... where torque and physical piston, rod, valve, and cylinder size is noticeably bigger or smaller. Horsepower goes up exponentially with rpms. So... in reality... at 1,800 rpm... you are maybe making 6 horsepower (if you have a 12 horsepower engine rated for 3,600 rpm). Make sense? Continuing on here... if you have a 10 horsepower engine... you are probably making under 5 horsepower at 1,800 rpm...

 

ANYONE EVER RAN A 10 HORSEPOWER ENGINE AT 1,800 RPM'S...? Gutless... right?

 

1-2+ extra horsepower at lower rpms is very noticeable... (possibly not as much at 3,600 rpms) but if you ever use the engine at lower rpms... you will notice a mighty big difference...

 

If you are pulling loads with your Wheel Horse, chances are you are not running 3,600 rpms all the time. To pull a load... you probably have to throttle it down a little, then let it rip once you get a little traction and get the tractor rolling. Within this process is where you would notice a difference.

 

Hopefully this is helpful from a grease monkey's perspective...

 

 

Don

Edited August 1, 2021 by Snoopy11

[Snoopy11 5,714]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:06 AM, Ed Kennell said:

 Every WH I have owned (8-20 HP) will spin the wheels under a dead pull.

True... but how much wheel spin depends on how much power you have at lower rpms. Finding it necessary to feed more throttle to have enough power (using more rpms) to complete a task only means more wheel spin, whereas having enough power at lower rpms, without feeding more throttle (and introducing more rpms) reduces the amount and duration of wheel spin. Weight and tires also effect this, but rpms also have direct influence on wheel spin.

 

This may be true in small ways... when talking about 10 or 12 horsepower... BUT I still feel that it matters!!!

 

Don

[adsm08 2,069]

I have never used a 12HP anything. I grew up mowing 2 acres of tall wet grass with a 310-8 and a 32 inch deck.

 

When you got into something that was too tall in a high gear it would bog down pretty good and  you would have to go down to first gear, or if it was really tall even low range for a bit to slow ground speed and get a good cut. But it would smoke the deck belt before killing the engine.

[Handy Don 12,235]

50 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

you would have to go down to first gear, or if it was really tall even low range

I agree, 10 hp is quite powerful. A lot of very capable early WHs were 6, 8, and 10. It's when we want do a lot of work quickly that we feel the limitation!

[Snoopy11 5,714]

On 8/1/2021 at 8:38 PM, Handy Don said:

I agree, 10 hp is quite powerful. A lot of very capable early WHs were 6, 8, and 10. It's when we want do a lot of work quickly that we feel the limitation!

True... but more horsepower lessens limitations...

 

Can I get a witness...?

 

Don

[ebinmaine 67,605]

On 8/1/2021 at 8:38 PM, Handy Don said:

It's when we want do a lot of work quickly that we feel the limitation!

 

1 hour ago, Snoopy11 said:

True... but more horsepower lessens limitations...

 

Can I get a witness...?

 

Don

 

 

You both right.