Kohler Twin

[Gregor 4,846]

Was just looking at the parts diagrams a bit. Mine has 2 separate mufflers, as in one of the diagrams. They are a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes. Yours today for the low low price of $278 For 1

[Thor27 767]

The good news is that is actually a MV18, or at least it shares the same bore and stroke. Sears wanted a 16 twin and it was easier for kohler to change the sticker than make a new engine.

 

I converted a mv18 to run horizontally five or so years ago, my memory isn't the greatest but here is my take away:

Use the manual!  

Big things you need are bearing plate/side cover, and crankshaft. Try to get them from the same engine. (try a-z,  i used one of the big recyclers on epay)

Mine was not from a wheel horse so I'm using an electric pto.

You will also need intake and exhaust manifolds, air cleaner elbow(a-z), all the external governor pieces (parts tree) dip stick, oil fill, oil pick up, breather tube.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

Well this is a new one to me.

I will give a little detail of what I did to the engine today. 

 

I cleaned every thing up the best I could. New spark plugs, cleaned the coil, set the gap. It has good spark to both plugs.  Disassembled and cleaned the starter. It turns over quite nicely. Removed the fly wheel, cleaned it inside and out, and cleaned the stator. Changed the oil. Dropped the carb bowl, it was pretty clean, reassembled.

Hooked up a fuel source.

The moment was at hand. gave it a shot of starting fluid, spun it over nuttin'  Gave it another shot and spun it over, nuttin'. Third times a charm, right?  Nope. As  I said the stater spins it quite well, and it was spinning, until it wasn't. It stopped. It stopped HARD !.

I could move it some by hand, but only a short distance. Well Crap. This can't be good. I decided to remove the flywheel, hoping against hope that it was something simple as a flywheel magnet. It wasn't. IT WAS ALL THE MAGNETS ! Stuck to the stator. I had quite a time getting the flywheel off. It was loose, simply would not pull off.  I suspect one or more magnets were out of line. It finally came. I have never seen anything like this before. I did clean the flywheel, but only with a wire brush, and air compressor. I left the magnets where they are. I know proper orientation is important. I will mark them somehow, before I pull them loose from the stator. I suspect one magnet let go, got bound up, and took the others. I see no damage to the stator. No magnets are broken, and no damage to the flywheel. If someone more knowledgeable, has another explanation, I'd like to hear it. I don't want this to happen again.  I am sure one of you bright fellows has a fool proof way of reattaching these things, yes?

So here are my questions.

What is the best method for reattaching these magnets?

Can I mark the magnets, pull them, reinstall the flywheel, and try to start it?

Would I be better off locating a new flywheel?

I am sureI will have more questions, but that's all I can think of right now.

Thanks for any help.  Greg

 

P.S.  I mentioned a while ago, I did something to my back. Tomorrow I go in for surgery. I'm not sure what I will be able to do after, or for how long. I think I will be doing a lot of nothing, so keep posting things. I gotta have something to do !

 

Thanks again  Greg

[oliver2-44 9,750]

Prayers for a successful surgery and recovery.

[Gregor 4,846]

Well, I have an update already. I marked and removed the magnets. Set the flywheel on top, and tried to turn it. It won't.  I'm guessing his is going to be good. I can't imagine something letting go at cranking speed. Any guesses as to what it might be? This MV 16 does have an oil pan. I suppose the next step is to drop it , and have a gander.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Gregor

[19richie66 17,508]

I bought a 417-A and got it home and checked it over. Rewired it, checked the oil, cleaned the points, spun it over and it fired up. Shut it off. Went inside, came back out and fired it up and let it run for a bit. Ran like a champ with no smoke. Loving my $150 deal. Shut it off again to change a fuel line and filter. Went to start it and it spun over once and BAM. Locked up. I could rotate it both ways till it got back to the one spot. After checking some things, pulled the plugs and shined a light in the front cylinder. Saw threads. Air cleaner base screw must have been laying in the intake and made its way to the front cylinder. I got it pried out of the head. Tried starting it again and it fired right up….. with a knock. 417-A is now a 412-A 😁 

[Gregor 4,846]

I couldn't stand the suspense. I pulled the heads. While facing the carburetor side of the motor, the piston on the right side, does not move. I don't know how you break a rod, turning the motor with the starter.

[Gregor 4,846]

Back surgery at 10AM, Home at 4 PM, The wonders of modern medicine. All went well, obviously.

 

I guess I can assume by the lack of response, no one else can figure how how to break a rod (I'm assuming anyway)  by cranking a motor with the starter. Before the break, I turned this motor over several times by hand. I also turned it several times with the starter, with no issues. I am still at loss for an explanation. Maybe I will find more when I open it up. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen for several days. I have orders from the general.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

7 minutes ago, Gregor said:

no one else can figure how how to break a rod (I'm assuming anyway)  by cranking a motor with the starter.

 

I think that the rod was already broken, and during the first attempts it was 'out of the way'.

 

Then, during the cranking, the vibration moved it into a position to be struck by the other parts.

 

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!  

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

9 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Back surgery at 10AM, Home at 4 PM, The wonders of modern medicine. All went well, obviously.

 

Awesome news Greg!  Heal well and quickly my friend!

[Gregor 4,846]

1 minute ago, Jeff-C175 said:

I think that the rod was already broken, and during the first attempts it was 'out of the way'.

I also thought of that, and it's the only logical explanation I can come up with at this time. May be why the engine was taken out in the first place.

[Gregor 4,846]

I got up early. Nurse Ratchet, is still in bed. Allowing me some work time. Actually, I feel pretty good. A little sore, but that's to be expected.

 

I did a lot of reading about the MV 16. again @pfrederi for the link!  Then I tore into it.  This motor has removable jugs, much Like some Lawn Boy motors, but I'm sure most of you know that. There are 6 nuts, and studs on each jug. Going into an aluminum block. I was not hopeful. They were pretty rusty and crusty, but to my surprise, they all came out. Except one of course. The nut had been rounded off some where along the line. I thought a 12 metric was going to do the trick, but nope. I ended up drilling two small holes in the side of the nut, and splitting it with a clod chisel. Then my 1/2" wrench took it right off. Sometimes ya get lucky. I pretty much followed the book as far as disassembly. Tagged, and bagged everything, down to the smallest screw, and took lots of pics.

As I suspected, the motor has a broken rod on the right side. I can't tell if it's a recent break, or old. Everything is covered with oil. Doesn't matter, it's broke.

The rod journal is pretty scratched up. I don't know .010 grinding will take it out or not.

 

Unfortunately there is a chunk out of the cylinder wall. A bit hard to see at the bottom of the cylinder.

 

I have yet to locate one of the rod cap nuts. I'm sure I'll find it when I split the case. Hopefully it didn't land on the cam, or somewhere, and cause damage.

The cylinder wall on the left looks really good. A little shiny, but no scratching that a hone won't remove. Of course I haven't checked it, or valve guides with a bore gauge yet.  Everything on the left side look very good.  All the valves and seats look good to me, but I will let the machine shop make that decision, should this project go that far. I was able to locate a new jug for $350. Don't know if that will happen. If it were horizontal shaft, I might consider it, but for a vertical shaft, that I may never have a use for, that's a bit much

New jug..............................$350

Rebuild kit..........................$285

Machine shop, (guess).......$400

Other incidentals.................$250

The next step is to remove the pan. This may not be easy, as there is a pulley on the shaft that appears to be quite content, with where it's at. It is a tin pulley, with no way to get a puller on it anyway.

That's a lot of money just for a fun time, and a learning experience.

 

Some say you can't put a price on a good time. They have never met my wife.

[Gregor 4,846]

I have taken it down as far as I intend to for now. I'm not real fast, but I am effective. I did not remove the governor shaft or gear. I see not reason to at this time. Unless someone tells me different. I did not remove the oil pump, cause there aint one. There is a gear for the oil pump, and maybe one could be added, .  The rest of the motor looks very good inside. I don't know a lot about these things, but I believe would a machine shop have to check the block for cracks. (more costs) I marked the timing gears before ever separating them. I had to tap the through holes in the stator, and use my puller, but it came. I also drilled and tapped the tin pulley on the bottom, and was able to bend it down to get nuts on the back side, and was able to pull that, There was a collar above the tin pulley. No way to pull that, I sliced it as much as I could with a cut off wheel, scratching crank a little, and split it. Got it off. Apparently the MV 16 only had sleeve bearings on the crank. The rebuild kits I saw, don't even offer bearings. unfortunately all this is for a loss cause, if I can't find a new jug. I know there are some guys on here selling engine parts, but I don't remember who. Does Lincoln?

 

Just called the machine shop. Cannot magna-flux an aluminum block. That makes sense.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Gregor

[pfrederi 17,739]

The oil pump is between the plastic gear and the small plate on the outside.  manual said not to screw with it if it seemed to work.

[Gregor 4,846]

I stand corrected. After re-looking, and re-thinking, I believe you are correct.

I saw this block off plate, and thought that's where the oil pump would go if it had one. I believe now, that is where the oil filter would go if it had one.

 

I don't want to mess with it, or the governor, but, if I take this block to the machine shop for cleaning a checking, (visual inspection) I suppose both would have to be removed. I guess I don't know how they clean them.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Gregor

[pfrederi 17,739]

This is a horizontal shaft magnum but the Vertical shaft manual shows the same plate and the same remarks about leaving it alone. Pump is behind the plate. You are correct the plate in your posture is for the oll filter mounting.

 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

Hmmmm. Can I have a jug? Maybe I can trade these expensive muffers for a jug. We don't need no stinkin' mufflers !

I remember someone on here, talking about checking for cracks with carb cleaner.

I sprayed the block half liberally with 2 cans of brake clean. Then I ran inside, washed my hands, arms,  face....

Let it dry, and sprayed it with carb cleaner. Then I ran inside, washed my hands, arms,  face....

I'll see if anything shows up. Maybe it doesn't work on aluminum, again,

 

This is NOT the side with the plastic governor, and oil pump gear.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

Will a jug from an MV 18, fit on a MV 16? 

[Gregor 4,846]

On 7/26/2021 at 6:14 PM, Thor27 said:

The good news is that is actually a MV18, or at least it shares the same bore and stroke. Sears wanted a 16 twin and it was easier for kohler to change the sticker than make a new engine.

If this is so, I don't see why not.

 

[Thor27 767]

They do show the 16 as having lower compression, so my statement is not entirely correct.

The vertical crank ends up way long once you take off the pan, you may be able to have it turned and shortened, but a used crank is cheaper.

I think It would be interesting to do this as a rebuild with a 20 horse stuff, and turn the pto end to 1-1/8. 

[Gregor 4,846]

2 minutes ago, Thor27 said:

They do show the 16 as having lower compression, so my statement is not entirely correct.

The vertical crank ends up way long once you take off the pan, you may be able to have it turned and shortened, but a used crank is cheaper.

I think It would be interesting to do this as a rebuild with a 20 horse stuff, and turn the pto end to 1-1/8. 

May sound interesting, but sounds kind-a cashy, for a motor I probably won't use.

[Gregor 4,846]

There is one area in the right side block, that I suspected of being a crack. Sometimes it's had to tell a crack from a casting mark. It was easily accessible, so I sanded it with 220 grit, then 600. It went away. I cleaned the are well with brake clean, and sprayed it with carb cleaner, I'll see if anything shows up.

I was going to take both halves to the machine shop, have them cleaned, and get their opinion. I could not get the phillips head governor screw out. # 1 phillips seemed to big, # 2 phillips seemed too small. All I did was round out the hole.

[Gregor 4,846]

22 hours ago, Gregor said:

I have yet to locate one of the rod cap nuts. I'm sure I'll find it when I split the case.

I never did find that nut.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

36 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I never did find that nut.

 

I've been right here all along Greg!

 

Seriously though... where could it have gone?

[Gregor 4,846]

I have no idea. Mt test stand is a shop cart, with a 4" deep tray on top, covered with 3/4" plywood. The plywood has holes in it. Maybe when I spilt the case, it fell out, and through one of the holes. If it did, I will find it someday. I also plan to thoroughly clean my garage today, maybe I will sweep it up.