Diesel engine transplants

[wh500special 2,184]

This thread about DIESEL HORSE reminded me that I should probably post this here...

Since I am a bit of a diesel nut and the opportunity came along, I mated a C-165 (thanks Jim "rustyoldjunk") with a Chinese 10 hp copy of a Yanmar air cooled diesel.

The engine was bought locally in Lafayette, IN at a store that was going out of business. It was one of those deals that was too good to pass up. You can find these on eBay from places like Carroll Stream and others who import cheap goods in bulk and resale them. Search for "10hp diesel" or similar.

It is a recoil start only engine and has no electrical system whatsoever. Although it cannot be started at temperatures lower than about 45 F (I've tried) using the rope, I actually prefer the relative simplicity of having no battery to maintain. In warmer weather, it typically starts instantly with one monster pull of the rope.

The engine fits on this style tractor with very little modification. The mounting footprint is longer from front to back than a Kohler, but is also narrower. So I tossed the "shaker" that was on here and substituted a mounting plate from a 520 and a stack of shims:

The PTO bail retainer is from a briggs powered tractor and the engine/transmission drive pulley and inner PTO race came from a tractor with a 1" shaft (any of the Briggs tractors or the B-60/80, C-81/85 will work). The hood has been lifted about 3/8" with a stack of shims between the hood and its hinge plate.

Otherwise, everything else works pretty much as-is. I still have some things to fix permanently (exhaust, shims, etc) but it works well. I've had a few minor issues with the engine, but it has largely exceeded my expectations which were pretty low .

Even though it is a 10 hp, it seems to put out more power than I expected. I'm not sure it compares to a 16 hp like some people claim, but it is definately a very strong motor. Under normal mowing conditions with a 48" deck it acts like it isn't even there. When warmed up it runs largely smoke-free unless you hit a tough patch and then it barks and belches soot momentarilly.

The video below shows me overloading it by cutting 12+" tall grass up a slight hill in 2H with a full bite from the mower. Even though it is smoking profusely, it really didn't big down much. This video was more for grins and giggles, not an example of how I typically use the tractor. Kind of a "what if" scenario.

This is a video of a cold start on a 60-ish degree morning. Pay no attention to the ugly guy pulling on the rope...

It is usually a "one pull" engine. Just give it half "throttle", hold the compression release down, and roll it over a stroke to make sure the injector is primed. Then bring it up until you hear the injector "squeak", run the rope back in all the way, put the foot on the front axle, and pull like heck. You cannot pull the recoil w/o the compression release. No way.

It's been a fun little project and it gave me the impetus to want to transplant another diesel into a different tractor.

I make no claims to the reliability or longitivity of these cheap diesel engines. This one seems to be a good one but I have seen reports of real duds too. I have a real, honest-to-goodness Yanmar to compare this to and from a superficial standpoint they are remarkably similar. But when you look close the Yanmar is put together much better and is better finished than these clones. I expect the attention to detail to carry over to the internals as well. Of course that should be expected given the huge price delta between the two.

Anybody else got a diesel?

Steve

[dkopp 1]

Steve,

Thanks for the chinese diesel review. I've always wondered about those. Nice videos. Did I hear a little belt squeal after you turned around on the first video? Looks like a stack is in order for those engines. Great info!

[Rideawaysenior 25]

Really like the sight of the black smoke when it loads up. Man that is nice.

Jack

[wh500special 2,184]

Did I hear a little belt squeal after you turned around on the first video? Looks like a stack is in order for those engines. Great info!

Yep, the belt squeal was when I pushed in the clutch to let the deck clear a plug. Because the front motor mounting bolt wanted to land directly over the spot where the axle crossmember mount is welded I had to slide the engine forward about 1/2" from stock. So the belt is a bit snug and is tough to release. I just got a slightly longer belt and hope it helps with that little glitch. Still need to install it.

No stack for me. I use this monster to mow and run around in the woods and need to sneak under tree branches and such. So a stack would just be in the way. But I admit it would look better with the smoke shooting up vertically rather than out to the side.

Really, unless the engine is significantly loaded - or overloaded - there isn't a whole lot of smoke under normal conditons. Until the thing warms up it does make some gray/light smoke but once up to temp it's not very noticeable...except when you hit a tough spot then it reminds you it is a diesel.

A few comments about sound: These engines are loud. And most of the noise is not from the exhaust as I tried strapping on a secondary muffler with little improvement. I'd guess the decible output would measure about the same as a k341 in an older C-series but the "quality" of the sound is certainly different. Not completely unpleasant, but very noticeable. I wear ear plugs with almost all of my tractors since I don't love excessive noise, but they are almost a requirement for this thing. Higher pitched I guess...and the constant knocking takes a little getting used to.

But I am admittedly a wimp when it comes to such things and never have been impressed with loud engines whether in a car, truck, motorcycle, tractor, or vacuum cleaner. Quiet is my pie in the sky dream for all of my junk.

It's a fun tractor to play with. I need to finish a few details and it will probably hit eBay sometime over the summer since I am out of room in the garage again.

Steve

[hodge 6]

That's not smoke, that's mosquito repellant!

[Confused99 2]

A diesel project is another one of my "on the list" of things to do some day. One thing I was wondering is if a starter/gen would start it. Ofcourse you would still have to use the compression release. What are your thoughts?

Jason

[wh500special 2,184]

One thing I was wondering is if a starter/gen would start it.

Jason,

I don't know. I've wondered the same thing.

You'd probably have to get one from a Cub Cadet or something that mounts the S/G to the PTO side of the engine since there is no pulley to access on the recoil side.

I'm not sure if they would have enough muscle to spin these things. I have my doubts. Since diesels have no choke I suppose you could rig the choke cable to the compression release to hold it open from the driver's seat. Then you could fire up the S/G and let the engine build up some momentum before you allow the release to trip to allow the engine to start.

It might work. And I may have to find a way to try it since my next diesel project is a vertical shaft Hatz 7 hp that will go in a late 1980's 200-series. The engine is a rope start model too but that tractor has an electric PTO clutch. My tentative plan was to just put a rechargeable battery on there for the clutch engagement but I might try to find a way to incorporate an electric starter/generator too. I move very slowly on projects though, so this will be a while before I can claim any progress on that front.

if you were really clever and a good fabricator, you could make a little pony engine to use as the starter. Get a weedwhacker 2 stroke and fit it with some kind of clutch and pulley belted to the engine. Start it up, engage the clutch and crank the diesel as long as you have gas in the tank of the pony. Like an old Deere or Caterpillar. Of course, that would be a pretty involved project...but it would certainly be unique. You could even route the pony's exhaust around the air intake for the diesel to preheat it.

If you order an engine new from a supplier you can opt for the electric starter for not much more than the recoil unit. Some of them apparently even have a preheater of some kind for winter duty which is about 9 months of the year for you guys in MN . And they give you a key switch that will also shut the engine down...this one must have the fuel supply cut manually to kill it.

From what I have read the electric starter will crank the engine even w/o the compression release being tripped. It apparently does take a pretty stout battery for that task though,especially in cool weather. The recoil unit is all the store I bought mine from had available since this was the last one they had and it was an "open item/no warrantee/no returns/good luck" engine.

If you avoid the compression release you can apparently start one of these even in pretty cold weather. It might take several revs to build up some heat though. Jim M said his smaller diesel (either 4 or 6 hp, I don't recall) started this past winter on a near zero degree day. 45 F is the coldest I have been able to rope start this thing in though...any colder and all, I get is white smoke from the exhaust. But then again I cannot pull the rope without the compression release.

It's really a fun toy and my neighbors seem to like the whimsy of the thing. Either that or they're just humoring me!

Steve

[dieselhorse 0]

Nice conversion Steve, did you put her up for sale yet? I am looking to do another one soon. Trying to sell off a spare moldboard plow, cat 0 3pt version. To fund another diesel horse project. Mike

[wh500special 2,184]

did you put her up for sale yet?

Mike,

Not yet. I've been swamped with work, travel, and then was on vacation last week and hadn't logged in to RS for about a week. There are still a few things I need to tweak before I'd let it go out of here, but overall it has been meeting my needs pretty well.

I know you've done a few of this mods and have had good luck. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with how nicely this engine has worked out. I really didn't know what to expect given that they cost about a fourth as much as a name-brand engine, but so far so good. All minor annoyances so far.

Good luck on the next project!

Steve

[bitten 134]

Steve

Do you think a heater, like block or oil, would help in starting it in colder weather. With no power going to it I know that it has no glow plugs, but is there provisions for them as there is for a starter?

Just some thoughts that went thru my head as I read this post.

Good luck with her, sounds like a fun project.

P.J.

[Nick 13]

There is a version that comes with a glow plug and electric start. Ebay diesel link

Something that might also help a little in the winter, with or without the glow plug, is changing to a diesel muti weight synthetic oil. Also adding some power service to the fuel can help with faster starts (might want to be careful measuring the amount if using the Cetane boost version). :thumbs2:

[dieselhorse 0]

My little 4.5hp diesel I put in the 654 would start at 5' outside without any major issues, but then I had electric start. I would just hold the push button in till she started, usualy took a good 10 seconds of cranking as it would start firing but need a little more spin time with the starter before she would take off. I ran Shell Rotella T 15w40 oil in it, same as my diesel pickup and the compact tractor I had at that time. Fuel was normal road fuel but with stanadyne fuel treatment in it as I would pump fuel from my pickups tank to refill the can I kept the tractor fuel in. I will put some fresh pics up tonight of my 654 diesel conversion. Another member here owns her now. I would love to buy her back right now though! On my lunch hour at work, still busy her at the Cub Cadet dealer I work at as a mechanic. Cheers Mike

[nitrohorse160 0]

I mix 1 oz. of good (synthetic) 2 stroke oil to one gallon of diesel. All I have access to is the ultra low sulfur diesel and that is hard on an engine that wasn't designed for it. I also use the Stanadyne as an anti-gel and anti-fungal.

The cetane boost is useless unless the engine is built (pump or injector work) since the higher cetane level has the same affect as a higher octane level in gas. Raising the cetane level slows the combustion of the fuel and that can hurt performance in a stock engine.

[plowmaster 0]

that fuel pump adjusted all the way out? i wonder what exhaust temps will get to before the piston turns into a puddle.

[wh500special 2,184]

Do you think a heater, like block or oil, would help in starting it in colder weather.

I don't think it would help much since the limitation on my recoil start unit is mostly related to how many times you can jerk on the rope before dislocating your shoulder or giving yourself a heart attack.

As I have read with the electric start versions, they will start in cold weather and do not need the compression release to crank. But there is little chance you're going to roll this sucker over w/o the compression release tripped.

I think the heaters could help assist on the electric start versions though and certainly wouldn't hurt anything, but the starting issue is mostly related to being able to pull the rope fast enough and long enough to get it to pop off.

Steve

[wh500special 2,184]

that fuel pump adjusted all the way out?

I don't know. Haven't bothered to check.

The videos really aren't how I typically use this thing. Instead they were shot mostly for their entertainment value and NOT an example of how one ought to run at 100% load for long periods of time.

Under normal loads, it doesn't smoke at all. So I think the fuel settings are close enough to "correct" that I/m not gonna mess with the smoke screw.

Steve

[wh500special 2,184]

I mix 1 oz. of good (synthetic) 2 stroke oil to one gallon of diesel. All I have access to is the ultra low sulfur diesel and that is hard on an engine that wasn't designed for it.

I've heard other guys do the same thing. I know the sulfur did add some lubricity to the fuel, but the fuel makers have reblended things to accomodate the removal of the material since most of the roadgoing fleet is older than the ULSD mandate implementation and they knew they would have liability issues if injection pumps started locking up. I personally doubt any additonal lubrication is needed, but a little extra 2 stroke oil probably doesn't hurt anything.

This engine is running Rotella 10W-40 synthetic diesel in it since I had it on hand. If all I had was WalMart diesel SAE 30 that's what would be in there.

Steve

[plowmaster 0]

I don't know. Haven't bothered to check.

The videos really aren't how I typically use this thing. Instead they were shot mostly for their entertainment value and NOT an example of how one ought to run at 100% load for long periods of time.

Under normal loads, it doesn't smoke at all. So I think the fuel settings are close enough to "correct" that I/m not gonna mess with the smoke screw.

Steve

yea i wouldnt either, although it would be nice to put a pyro on there to locate your EGT's, just to be safe and still really use it.

i would surely use the snot out of that motor, especially getting it for less than cost. do you have an hour meter for it? it will be interesting to see how it keeps up, hopefully youll be able to report on its longevity years from now.

nonetheless, now it looks and sounds like a REAL tractor, nice.

[oldandred 15]

this is mine it was at the show last weekend and it was all over only about two cups of diesel burned and I rode it around just about all day wednesday ,thursday ,friday, 1/2 day saturday on about two cups of diesel

[nitrohorse160 0]

I've heard other guys do the same thing. I know the sulfur did add some lubricity to the fuel, but the fuel makers have reblended things to accomodate the removal of the material since most of the roadgoing fleet is older than the ULSD mandate implementation and they knew they would have liability issues if injection pumps started locking up. I personally doubt any additonal lubrication is needed, but a little extra 2 stroke oil probably doesn't hurt anything.

This engine is running Rotella 10W-40 synthetic diesel in it since I had it on hand. If all I had was WalMart diesel SAE 30 that's what would be in there.

Steve

I run the same Rotella 10W-40 synthetic in mine. I have about 400 hours on my engine and it doesn't miss a beat.

[wh500special 2,184]

this is mine...

Jerry,

Steve

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

So, anyone game to repower a D-250 with diesel???

Check this out (not cheap)

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Item.asp?UID=...es&item=28-1719

:thumbs2:

[daleraby 0]

Anyone tried this with one of the new Koehler diesels (http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecata ... r%20Diesel)?

[wh500special 2,184]

The Kohler diesels are essentially just the old Lombardini engines from Italy. Buzz posted somewhere a while back that Kohler evidently bought Lombardini last year.

The Lombardini's seem to be really nice motors. I had a small 6LD260 (I think) that came from a sign board and it was an incredibly stout engine for a 4.5 hp. It was physically probably about the same size as a 10hp Kohler k241 and almost as heavy as the planet Saturn.

I think - don't quote me here - that the Lombardinis do NOT have the appropriate bearings in them to take the end loading from the WH PTO clutch. So you'd either have to use an electric clutch or craft a thrust bearing arangement like WH used on Briggs equipped tractors.

Steve